Legitimacy, Legality and 1000 Feet of Leverage-- Wes at UCLA
Submitted by ms in la on January 23, 2007 - 4:28am.
Current Events | Firsthand Accounts | International | Iran | Iraq | National Security | Veterans & Military | Wesley Clark
A perfectly clear, sunny, 68 degree L.A. winter day presented itself for the General at UCLA Law School this afternoon. I arrived about 20 minutes early and was politely ushered by event organizer Elsie Walton to the taped off Media section in the first three rows. I chatted with people as they came in, familiar and un. A young writer for the L.A.Times plopped down to my right— Francisco Vara-Orta, with long, straight black hair, notebook and pen poised for action. (Google alerters; keep an eye out for his article, coming soon.)
The UCLA Media Relations representative, Claudia Luther, graciously asked if we needed anything--- I almost imagined for a brief moment I was the ‘legitimate press’. Should I ask for lunch? :P Being this was a lecture on legitimacy, I decided to blend in. To fantasize about a day when the line between bloggers and MSM would blur enough so that we could crossover into each others’ territories seamlessly.
Francisco, who loves his job at the Times, told me he had never heard Wes speak before and was looking forward to it. I informed him that he was a dynamic speaker-- the likes of which you see seldom in the political arena, and he replied, “Yeah, I guess he has his performance down.” Any Clarkie would’ve jumped in on that in a heartbeat. And I was any Clarkie:
“No, not really. It’s not about performance with General Clark. It’s from the heart. It’s authentic, it’s love of country, the country he’s spent a lifetime defending.... You’ll see what I mean. It’s not the rehearsed sound bites and gestures we’re used to getting from other DC ‘performers’”. He listened and seemed open to the idea of such an anomaly. Because he enjoys writing on the topic of education, he said he planned to pen this piece within that framework, but added; “If he announces.... I guess that would change the whole thing.” Oh—“IF”, I thought to myself, and chuckled...
5 minutes to show time and the room is starting to fill up rapidly. Pleased to see such an incredibly diverse crowd. Every age from teens in tight knit caps to senior-seniors-- every race, there are soldiers in camouflage, others in crisp uniforms, men in suits, ties, academics, scholars, mothers, be-sweatered educators, professors, Deans, Dems and Clarkies. I’d venture around 150 to 200 + in the main lecture hall and 30 or so in the spillover room. (Sorry about the traffic JMora)
I spotted Wes near the entry talking- meeting, greeting. He breezed over to us in the front and – omg, here he comes... He extended his hand warmly to me, smiled broadly, and said, “Hi,Nice to see you again!”—Gulp. I introduced him to Francisco, pointing out emphatically that the L.A. TIMES was in the house, and Wes said, “Well good to meet you—but this is NOT a political event you know...” Gulp again.
First things first.... Red Tie.. White shirt. Navy suit. Rested, healthy glow, and a full bottle of water within arms reach, which he actually drank!
Dean Mike Schill - http://www.law.ucla.edu/home/index.asp?page=684 - does the introduction to General Clark. He intended to keep it short – but the General has such a weighty and extensive resume, it’s a hard task. As the Dean was rattling off the litany of awards, honors, and accomplishments, Wes was waiting just off stage scrolling through his Blackberry. (Probably texting Arianna about the L.A. money people he’d been talking to...) :P
__________________________________________________________________
Suddenly-- the Senior Fellow of the Burkle Center for International Relations UCLA, General Wes Clark, takes the stage to warm applause, and doesn’t miss a beat...
WES: “Now someone asked me when I was coming up here today was I going to announce for President (laughs) The answer is “no”! I haven’t ruled out something like that... but I’m not here today in a political purpose. If you want to see the latest —go to my website and see the speech I gave last week in Alabama. That’s the political side. I’m really here in an academic setting, a policy setting and a legal setting.”
“I think that war and law are two critically important regimes of study and practice in the United States and it’s very difficult to find people who really do the cross walk between the two well.. and yet the failure to do the crosswalk can lead to enormous policy failures”.
He gave the crowd the modest caveat that he’d like to tackle these subjects “-- as a scholar, an academician, a practitioner but NOT as someone who ran for office, or someone who might run for office.” He asked if he could set aside partisanship and simply offer his best judgment—party affiliations aside.
“This is about our country, and our world, not about partisan politics”
“This is one of those moments where so much will depend on the outcome, the decisions, the choices made by our government in the weeks ahead. America’s army is in a crisis. We’re bogged down in a failing war in Iraq. The president said we’re going to put 20,000 more troops in but—that’s a really hard stretch. The Iraq Study Group called for a draw down, but the Iraq Study Group was taken by many as an admission of failure... It’s driven our Sunni allies in the region into despair.”
(Warning! Wes’s New Word of the Day ahead- it’s not even in my spellcheck so.... )
“--And it’s made Iran ... even more (here it is--->) triumphalist than it had already been.. And it’s recognition that Al Qaeda is more numerous, increasingly diffused, and still very much lethal.”
While I was still pondering the novel sound of “triumphalist” rolling in my ear, the General had moved on to the prospect of Congress’s attempt to block the troop surge into Iraq. He said that if they were successful-- we will be entering into a “different period”... If they do this, he says;
“--It’s the first REAL check on the President’s foreign policy by Congress.”
The statement sat like a sigh on the podium. Naked, stark truth, the kind that isn’t always favored by bright lights—it stung to recall that in six long years, we have had no real checks on the wildly exaggerated executive powers we now see in this White House.
I wriggled in my seat and checked the LA Times guy to be sure he’d caught that nugget. He was scribbling into his notebook with a fierce intensity that I tried to match in mine. It became a scribble-off.
Wes went on to expose the “neocon policies” in the region, listing the PNAC countries targeted one by one. Then his voice slipped into that plaintive tone he gets when he talks about our lost luster.... about our fledgling international respect.
WES: “What’s happened to this United States of America since the 11th of September 2001 when 200,000 Germans demonstrated at the Brandenburg Gate? When people all over the world came out and supported us? What’s happened? --The proponents of robust use of military power have encountered “other realities”.... It’s that simple.”
He told us how easy it is in wartime to criticize the Generals...how he’s hearing no shortage of that now. But that there were far more serious mistakes made beyond anything the Generals did or did not do. And in that organized fashion, he then lays out the mistakes that were made, outside of the scope of a General’s duties.
_________________________________________________________________
THE MISTAKES
WES:
“The failures to appreciate the importance of law--
The concept of legitimacy in the conduct of American affairs abroad, and
The subsequent impact on public support.... at home
Those indeed are serious failures. Those are war-losing failures. And they are not the responsibilities of the men and women in uniform. They’re the responsibilities of the United States government.”
“I was on the Bill O’Reilly show the other night, and when I talk about diplomacy and international law... Bill accuses me of “chatting”! He said, oh go have one of those chats if you want...(laughter) He thinks I guess foreign policy is won by the bayonet fixed at the end of the rifle.... I don’t. I think nations accomplish their focus in the world by changing people’s minds. But how? Dialogue, diplomacy, and especially law.”
”Law is like the DNA of our society.”.
“The law genome has never been fully mapped... You can’t transplant it from one society to another, it sort of seeps across national boundaries. It infects people through the media. It permeates our political societies here and abroad. The influence of law builds culture. But I’ve seen the power of law, and the ideas of legitimacy, affect the course of conflict. I’ve seen the United States use law and legitimacy to succeed, where all the military pundits predicted failure. And now.... what I see is, for all the military pundits that predicted success.... I see our neglect of law and legitimacy leading to our failure.”
____________________________________________________________________
THE LESSON—THE JUST WAR THEORY
Wes then gave the room(s) a thorough history lesson on the US Constitution, war powers, and the split between legislative and executive branches therein. How that came about and each iteration of it over the years. How the Draft bill of 1940 initiated for WWII was passed by one single vote... How the Congress of the time was so staunchly isolationist-- until Pearl Harbor, and (as with the New Pearl Harbor) how that changed them overnight.
Then in 1973 Congress passed, over the veto of the President, the War Powers Act -- so that Congress would have a voice in the decision to use military force. (what a concept!) The War Powers Act has been invoked 114 times, and remains highly controversial he tells us, but—
“--It was not an issue in the case of Iraq. Because the President won Congressional support for his action. House Joint Resolution 144, October 11th, 2002, gave the President the authority to use force. He took it to the UN-- and then he used it...
We went to war on legally sufficient grounds, both nationally and internationally.”
And then he laid the golden egg of the lecture:
“The problem wasn’t legality. It was legitimacy”.
“US actions went against the broad notions of legitimacy which had emerged at the heart of Just War theory. The adherence to which may be FAR MORE IMPORTANT than technical “legality”...
“We were legal in Iraq, but are we legitimate?”
“Go back to the Old Testament, the beginning of western Just War theory. God often directed Israel’s armies, telling them who to fight – what to do with people they capture or kill, telling them to put whole nations to the sword and drive them out.”
“Professor Clark” informs us that St Augustine said that a war’s justice depends on its purpose, its authority and its conduct. Rulers – per the Saint-- had an OBLIGATION to maintain the peace. You don’t fight to defend yourself, you turn the other cheek, as Christ said. And so it was JUST for a ruler to fight—so long as the purpose was to restore the peace, and the use of force was not excessive or cruel. You couldn’t go to war for spoils, or for aggression...
He then brought up the concept of the force used being in proportion to the threat being dealt with. Ideas of using force only as a last resort, and protecting the innocents-- it being unjust to slaughter every man, woman and child-- bubbled up between the 15th to the 17th centuries. ( the good old days?) The 1899 Hague Convention sets forth yet new parameters—peaceful settlement of disputes, pillaging and plundering are outlawed, hospitals and doctors were not to be attacked, prisoners are to be safeguarded- not tortured. The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and the 1977 Protocols codified into international law this Just War theory yet further. Civilian populations shall not be subject to attack.
It’s law. It’s codified.
Wes goes on to compare Islamic laws against unjust wars that are similar to ours and others and how these ideas cross both cultural and geographical barriers.
____________________________________________________________________
UNDERCUTTING OUR LEGITIMACY
WES: “After 2002, after the UN Security Council Resolution was passed, we began immediately undercutting our own legitimacy in the operation in Iraq.. Even in 2002 the neocon movement discussed ‘broader aims’”
--and General Clark opines that by Feb 2003-- the President had undercut the Just War PURPOSE for the operation – talking about “establishing democracy” instead of the Just War premise of the purpose of the operation; enforcing UN SCR about weapons of mass destruction.. Neocon publications made it clear, he says, that we were going to Iraq as a FIRST step--- and that it wasn’t about WMD... but about “broader geostrategic issues”. So we had, from the outset, undercut the legitimacy of the legality.
We further undercut our legitimacy by failing to use the “war as a last resort” standard. He says we went in initially announcing that “we don’t do body counts”, losing our legitimacy on the protection of the innocents. We were incredibly insensitive culturally—it says to them that we’re not concerned about how many civilians we hurt.
The administration said:
Change Regime. But that wasn’t the purpose.
Capture Saddam. But that wasn’t the purpose.
Then the failure to find WMD... further cutting the operation’s legitimacy.
Then they said we should exclude our soldiers under International Criminal Court from war crimes charges—our allies were forced to sign statements to this. Abu Ghraib and Gitmo... further cuts “– we were going against the very international conventions we had promoted ourselves.” Renditions to secret prison sites violated both US and international law.
_______________________________________________________________________
WES as CHALABI
General Clark then recounted the Davos conference of pre-invasion January, 2003. He had finished his talk when Ahmed Chalabi jumped up and cried out---
(Wes animates this by raising his arms and shouting out in his best Iraqi accent)
“You forgot about me! You forgot about me! We’re going to welcome the Americans as liberators!! -- You said there’ll be resistance in these cities.... There WON’T be! The Americans will be welcomed as liberators.”
________________________________________________________________
WES: “After all is said and done, an operation has to be successful or effective in order to meet a Just War standard. By EVERY standard-- Purpose, Effectiveness, Protection of the Innocent, Use of Minimal Force, Proportionality of Force vs Threat, War as a Last Resort-- we’ve undercut the legitimacy.”
“And without that legitimacy... public support eroded. Without public support, the United States cannot succeed in the war against terror.”
His voice drops now as he augurs, “That’s a mission... in deep, deep trouble. And I want to reemphasize – I’m not speaking from a partisan perspective. I simply want to make the observation as someone who’s spent his life in this area. That this country has squandered its mantle of legitimacy in this conflict.”
Wes makes the contrast with the Kosovo campaign and stresses that they strictly adhered to Just War theory principles—and they won. It was a last resort, it was effective, they used minimum force, in keeping with proportionality, and worked hard at protection of the innocents, and did it all by following Just War theory.
Kofi Annan had said that the war in Iraq is legal... but it’s not legitimate. And that conversely the war in Kosovo was illegal... but it was legitimate.
_____________________________________________________________________
IRAN-- 1000 FEET OF LEVERAGE
The soldiers and the Dean were completely mesmerized when Wes talked about Iran. So was the rest of the room for that matter.
WES:
“We need to keep the threat of Iran in perspective. And in dealing with them we have to realize that we are the most powerful country in the world. We have incredible economic strength. We hold the key to the G-8, the World Trade Organization, International Monetary Fund...the key to advanced technology, energy development—We have that. So when I hear rumors that the President is unable to talk to Iran right now because we don’t have “leverage”...
--- If you have 1000 feet of leverage – do you need another half inch?”
We have 1000 feet of leverage over Iran. We’re completely dominant over the country. Cant the most powerful nation in the world deign to speak to an aspiring regional power?
(whoops and tons of applause burst from the room at this common sense proclamation)
"The saber rattling has begun. We're refusing to talk to our potential opponents. We have to understand that there are limits to what pure force – or the threat of pure force- can accomplish."
"It is not about the killing. It’s about changing minds. In the struggle against Iran, we’ve got to have legality and we’ve got to have legitimacy. The military option remains on the table, but this is the time to strengthen US legitimacy as we move forward. Not the time to threaten and saber rattle."
Our greatest weapons in the war on terror, per Wes--
* The US Constitution
* The Bill of Rights
* Our adherence to international law
* Our respect for others of different cultures and religious faiths
If we use those weapons – with legitimacy, Wes says, the recruiting base for Al Qaeda will dry up and they’ll be left with a small hard core band of fanatics. They’ll lose their following.
WES: “It’s a matter of understanding the linkages between legality, legitimacy and public support and success in modern warfare. Thank you.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I wish you could have heard the hearty and extended round of applause at the end of the speech. It was very gratifying.
There were many questions but here is just one, from a young man wearing the uniform.
Sir, Captain Meyer-- assistant professor of Military Science here at UCLA.
Wes: Great to see you here, Captain
Thank you Sir. Is there any way at this point for us to regain some legitimacy, at this point in the war?
Wes: I think there is a path we could follow- Aim for strategic consent within the region. Send high level diplomats to the region and talk to all the countries. (and the rest of the Wes diplomacy platform is spelled out here) --Our purpose would be perceived as more constructive, and we might be able to regain some of the lost legitimacy.
__________________________________________________________________
WES WRAP UP
"We’re the most powerful country in the world. And our power is based not even on our military or our economy-- but it’s based on the belief that America is slow to anger and slow to act. And righteous and fair in what we do. And when we go against that, we undercut our influence; it’s an undertow that cannot be offset by any number of aircraft carrier battle groups, or tomahawk missiles or army divisions. And that’s the power of doing the right thing. We may not always prevail without the use of force... but the use of force should always be the last, last, last resort".
___________________________________________________________________
We briefly mingled afterwards. I took a not very in-focus picture of JMora and his buddies with General Clark (sorry again, JMora!) and the General asked me “Where’s the LA Times guy?” Francisco had left, but not before I heard him asking a few of the students in the room what they thought of the speech. I was listening in my left ear while talking to someone else on my right ear, but did manage to make out a very positive response from the student behind us ... I heard-- “really informative, very interesting, I liked it”. Or words to that effect.
Skipping back to the parking lot (yes, skipping)-- I couldn’t help but notice... the skies really were much bluer. And get a load of those clouds! They're gorgeous!! The General breezes through UCLA campus and clears the air about legitimacy.
Quite literally.
ms in la: My deepest gratitude for filing this report and transcript.
When I read General Clark's words -- and visualize him in the lecture hall -- I smile and am gleeful.
But then, I think about the impediments to his deserved position as President -- and I grow sad.
And so I stop with the intellectual gratification his words bring. That alone brings a few joyful tears in response to hearing the truth, and gaining insight.
Imagine for a moment further impediments to hearing General Clark's wisdom...now that is really, really painful. That my fragile frame cannot bear.
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.--J. V. Marley
for your detailed report you did a wonderful job - Wes' voice lifts us above the collective insane lies, delusions and ideologies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution Nov 7 1973
http://www.fas.org/man/crs/IB81050.html - HR Joint Resolution Oct 11 2002
"We've got to create a new strategy that works, that puts the United States in a leadership role, but tries to bring nations together instead of setting one against another." - Wes Clark 1/16/ 2007
I wish I could have been there, but this blog is the next best thing. Thanks for doing it, and thanks for greeting General Clark.
Too nuanced
--snark off
Well done, thank you ms.
Send in the cavalry
Someone once asked me if I had learned anything from going to war so many times.
My reply:
Yes, I learned how to cry.
Joe Galloway
for all you do (and how well you do it) dear ms.
Every time I hear the common sense expertise of this man being laid out it reminds me once again of what my country once was and what it could be once again.
You're the best--and WKC is electric in LA, seems to me.
The General gets it right.
Competence--What a concept!
ms_la, thank you SO MUCH! This gave me chills in a good way, so heartening to hear Wes relating & articulating his understanding of how Congress intersects with the Exec branch, too!
And so deeply wonderful to hear his unfiltered thoughts-- each things seems like such a gem of an observation unto itself- nobody puts it all together comprehensively like the General-- what a refreshing tonic to drink on the morning of the eve of the accursed seventh State of the Union address by the whozits -- and also -- so good to hear a master teacher with so many C students crowding the room of late
I'm really intrigued by the line of thinking focused on law & legitimacy, and I love the deep study of bringing St. Augustine in, etc.
I hope you get to post this at dkos too a little later, a superb balm for the soul on this day of SOTU
Thanks so much!!!!
Draco Malfoy: Scared, Potter? Harry Potter: You wish.
And despite the fact that it's below freezing here in Michigan, windy and overcast - it's as sunny and warm to me as it is in LA. Funny how Hope and Inspiration can do that.
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
Gen. Omar Bradley
Add snowy to the description up here. Great report!
Ron Esquerra
Alger County Democratic Party
Upper Peninsula Veterans Coordinator-
www.michigan4clark.com
I neglected that, thanks for the catch.
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
Gen. Omar Bradley
...was fascinating as was the theme of his lecture "legality versus legitimacy"
He never fails to surprise us with his new ideas and new ways of looking at things. It's his gift.
Run Wes Run!
I'm sure Wes could give a pretty good dissertation on St Augustine and contrition, too, if the situation called for it. How many times has Pres Bush hit us over the head with 'our cause is just'? Gen. Clark took that apart beautifully and exposed it for the falsehood that it is.
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
Gen. Omar Bradley
Further proof that we must continue the good fight to persuade General Clark that his army is ready to report for duty.
Thank you so much, ms. I physically felt this and heard it, through no small effort on your part. And of course, our General was superb. He never disappoints. His ability to see and point out our better nature is a real gift. Again, kudos.
"Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants."
Gen. Omar Bradley
I do hope you have plans to post this at kos. (once you've had some sleep, of course:)
Give us a heads up if you do.
Run Wes Run!
Would naming a cul-de-sac after General Clark be demeaning?
Around here there are about 17 different road/ hwys, streets, courts etc named for Generals- as far as I can tell long dead ones from past wars...(Lee, stuart, jackson,, Beauregard and a few I am not sure about- Gage, Early, Forrest, Gookin, Hill, Longstreet, Mahone, Thomas, Booth) Some of these are quite large roads, most are average size.
So I am building a small subdivision- 13 houses total, and it will have one new court which will be the address of 6 of the 13 homes.
If I name it General Clark Court...would that be too small a deal to have his name on?
This is Virginia Beach.
I really would like your opinion on this. I have to name the Court ASAP>
heartclark: I think a cul-de-sac in Virgina named after Wesley Clark would be appropriate.
You may know that General Clark returned to Pristina last summer, was greeted with flowers and cheers, and had a street named after him.
While I understand it is a cul-de-sac and "Court" comes to mind, I'd like you to consider: "Wesley Clark Place" "General Wesley Clark Place" Wesley Clark Way" and "General Clark Way."
little more visible.
I am entirely open to the CCN blogers naming the Court- or not naming it if their opinion is that it would be too small.
Please move your reply to my blog entry. thanks-
Since a cul-de-sac is usually a dead-end with a large turn around at the end, a fitting name would be "Rue de la John Kerry".
You deserve some triumphalist thoughts today for your job well-done.
Thank you so very much. I know you are busy, and appreciate your taking the time to send out a few blue skies. I never understood "Just War" theory, and can now better take on those Chomsky quoters.
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.--J. V. Marley
You are a goddess of the pen. I salute you.
Magnificent report. I'm sendin' it round.
This speech is so important and should be spread far and wide. This insight and depth of knowledge definitely separates Wes Clark from all the others.
ms, I'm looking forward to the L.A. Times piece on the event. Your piece here only further illustraits why we so desperately need Wes Clark sitting in the Oval Office.
How can you go wrong with a leader like Clark? No one has that knowledge, experience and wisdom! How can anyone not entrust him with their future? The rest are mere pretenders. What a missed opportunity it would be for the American people and the world not to be led by Clark. This world will be way better. There will be a sigh of relief and quiet rejoicing to be in the capable hands of Clark!
...look at WKC's speeches and pick out what I think will eventually come out of the mouths of Biden/Edwards/Hillary etc. But I don't see how they can steal the legality versus legitimacy argument. I mean, they are a big part of what made this war legal. It would take enormous cojones to talk about it's legitimacy. I guess the only one I'll be watching is Obama
Run Wes Run!
Once again, you provide an outstanding report, for which I thank you.
"Some of them put on their cowboy boots and put their feet up on the desk." -Wes Clark
Thank you so much for this wonderful blog entry!
Wes Clark is so so right, and when I talk about needing a leader with vision, who can articulate progressive moral values, who is not afraid to talk in terms of morality (e.g.: his reference to St. Augustine's Just War writings) ...
... Wes Clark is the only candidate I see who does that.
Alexander de Tocqueville was right: "America is great because she is good; if ever she fails to be good, she will fail to be great."
Under Bush, we have failed to be good ... and we are no longer great. In order to recapture our greatness, we must first recapture our goodness -- our commitment to our civic ideals, our commitment to fervently searching for moral and rational truth, and our commitment to acting in accordance with that truth. It is that goodness which confers legitimacy, and as Wes said, it is that legitimacy which empowers our actions.
Now ... can someone please track down our beloved Wes, tap him on his very square shoulder, look into his kind and wise eyes ... and convince him that We The People need him yet again???
Crissie
Edit: It's worth noting that "regime change," one of the principal Bush goals in Iraq, is not a sufficient legal basis for war. Indeed, one of Tony Blair's principal challenges was the need to find (or manufacture) some other grounds, lest he find himself on trial in the World Criminal Court (to which Great Britain subscribes).
in the question period after, the former Dean of the Burkle Center challenged Wes with this same sort of question, telling him his view was that the Iraq war WAS in fact both illegal and illegitimate. Wes made a little joke about not wanting to disagree with the former head of Burkle (!) BUT...
he then proceeded to disagree.
I will try to get the file to RegNYC for a transcript as there were lots of Q's that I didn't cover here. My Wes blogs are always too long but I hate to edit out any of his words, as he seldom speaks of anything superfluous.
I want to skip, too, just reading this!
Thank you so much for writing such a fantastic and detailed report - *almost* as good as being there. I especially love his putting "just war" theory into context. THIS is why education is so important!!
Please do post this at Kos and DU.
The World Needs Wes
to ms in la: A wonderful report!!!!!! The depth of knowledge, understanding, AND the ability to analyze today's events and problems in a larger scenario of the history of legality, legitimacy, and laws are what sets Wesley Clark apart from everyone. Yes, others may echo his words, but I doubt that they have the total understanding that he has, and be able to articulate it. I know there are many scholars in the world who contribute to these areas of discourse, BUT are they also possessing of magnetic personality, handsomeness, a giant love of America and all it stands for, a love for people and interest in their welfare???? NO-NO-NO. Wesley Clark is unique for our times. We NEED HIM to lead this country now, not surrogates just learning from him, although if they listen to him and learn, that would be great.
Will this speech be available on the CCN website? I would really like a copy of it.
I'm pressed for time this morning and had to skim, but this is wonderful. Thanks for taking so much time to keep us in the loop.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
If not now, WHO? If not now, WHEN?
BE THE CHANGE you wish to see in the world.
for burning the past midnight oil, too.
From my desktop Oxford American dictionary:
triumphalism |trīˈəmfəˌlizəm| |traɪˌəmfəˈlɪzəm| |trʌɪˌʌmf(ə)lɪz(ə)m|
noun
excessive exultation over one's success or achievements (used esp. in a political context) : an air of triumphalism reigns in his administration.
DERIVATIVES
triumphalist |traɪˌəmfələst| adjective & noun
Thank you for bringing this event to all of us. There is a Ms in LA registered at DailyKos. I hope that's you and that you will cross post there. I've already linked your blog here at Securing America with the latest Clark diary at Dkos but your report would make a great stand alone.
but I tried to put it up yesterday from work, and the danged coding over there blocked a posting -- then I had no time to go back and redo it.... and the story is now too old to post I fear.
I tried!
Opening closing tags are so sensitive over there-- they won't publish if there's one or two off, but they don't indicate WHERE in the text the error occurred... so if you're pressed for time, it's impossible.
Should've just done it without bolding, italics and blockquotes! : (
Don't give up, the context is even better post-Webb SOTU- if you want I can try it in frontpage with some formatting then you can cut & paste it into notepad or something. If you want a hand just let me know- the event & your telling of it is a huge keeper so even just sploshing it over with no formatting would still be okay- and on the other hand- it is so gloriously wonderful having it here & so many are reading it that I hope you don't feel any pressure about getting it over on kos.
thank you so much for having done it in the first place!!!
Draco Malfoy: Scared, Potter? Harry Potter: You wish.
Just saw this-
I'll email you the doc that was for Kos (it has the coding in it-- so you can see the intent for bold/italic/blockquote-) but the only thing necessary would be the key phrases in bold (can see here) and the blockquotes for easy reading.
I had done a version sans the Clarkie-centric stuff that might not translate over there. So I'll send you the doc and you can email me back what will work... I hope!
Thank you!
But only do it if you think it's not too "after the fact" or stale to put it up 2 days later. And if you have time.
What he says here is pretty timeless though... : )
Another stellar speech from the General, thanks for being there.
watch and listen...
So glad you could all enjoy the kernels of this most fascinating lecture yesterday.
I am dashing off to appointments now (seem to be doing a lot of dashing these days!) and will try to put something up at Kos in the later part of the day.
Try<---- operative word! : )
Later!
from two Clark focused Daily Kos diaries today (while keeping an eye on MSNBC - what a morning!). You might want to check them out before posting:
Wes Clark, the 50-state Candidate
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/23/11826/6006
Clark at UCLA today: Too Late?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/22/201958/090
Wes Clark's comment presents an astounding characterization of George W. Bush xliii & his approach to the War in Iraq--as in "bring it on," Mission Accomplished & "Way Forward."
The Wikipedia entry from Roman Triumph most likely describes how Bush xliii would like to see himself. For Gen. Clark to use this term is amazing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_triumph
However, Clark's command of military history & traditions would very likely be encyclopaedic.
when thinking about George in a Caesarean sense.... it's no wonder he's so reluctant to testify before the Senate at any given time!
tee hee
That's what triumphalism gets you....
Now I'm really going.
"Et tu" ms in la?
And tonight is the State of the Union address. I have no ill will toward George xliii, however it would be fun to seem him face stony silence from those who may have to impeach & convict him in a short while.
"Venite ignoramus."
of course, I expected nothing less! ♥
We Clarkies are fortunate to have you living in a location where Wes seems to have frequent speaking engagements. I'm looking forward to reading the piece by Francisco Vara-Orta, too. It will be rather interesting to see what he has to say about "Our" General.
my subscription to the LATimes after they fired Bob Scheer - in protest. I wonder if Francisco's piece will run online or only in the hard copy?
If I don't see it in a few days, I'll give him a call to check where we might find it. (he gave me his card)
I too will be interested to hear his take as a first timer at a Wes event.
Our greatest weapons in the war on terror, per Wes--
* The US Constitution
* The Bill of Rights
* Our adherence to international law
* Our respect for others of different cultures and religious faiths
imbillorightsmanandiapproveTHATmessage!!!
Thanks for the wonderful account, ms_in_la!
ms_in_la and her little digital recorder:
The next best thing to being there!
(Looks like the REC and STOP buttons work just fine!)
The most striking irony about it is.... that it's drafted by a former General and commamder of NATO-- a military man.
That is his WEAPONS list!
It would be an excellent "tool" to use when battling some of the leftie anti-military gang online.
Here are Wes Clark's weapons of choice in the fight against terror....
I'd keep that list on file!
Yes, they benefitted tremendously from Saddam's removal and are now a major player in Iraq. Yes, they seek to be a regional power. Yes, they are pursuing nuclear energy.
But, beyond that, the country has some serious internal problems. Their economy is in the dumper, eventhough oil prices have been astronomically high. Anyone who has an education is leaving the country to go and work abroad. On top of that, their oil industry is falling apart without foreign direct investment.
What does this mean? It means we can bring Iran to the table without saber rattling, just as General Clark has been saying all along.
want to do is radicalize the population
strength comes in all shapes and sizes, not
just by being a bully and threatening people
WES IS BEST
BEST STICK WITH WES 08
Bill (from RI)
Imagine President Wesley Clark, sweater clad, in a comfy chair, at his fireside in the WHite House talking and explaining things to the American people in an intelligent, articulate manner. Imagine the lessons the people could learn from this man. Imagine how he would inspire kids to actually study in school. Imagine what he could do to the anti-intellectualism in America school. Imagine how united and proud and respected our country has become once again. Imagine how thrilled and pleased you would be to remember that you worked your buns off to get his there. Imagine.
Wes 08
Wes, as President, would address the Nation and explain why he needed to take
certain steps and what they would mean to this country and the rest of the world. He would set very high standards for future Presidents.
I like it:) Thanks again for being there for all of us again, ms and blogging. Blogging is very important!
I remember how badly some of us were feeling around New Year's weekend. I said then that Bushco had gotten away with doing so much that was wrong that it was difficult for some of us to feel anything at all, until Wes Clark begins to speak, that is. And, man has Wes ever started to speak out again! The "smart surge", the "three words", and now this fascinating appraisal of what went wrong and how we can fix it!
I can see you skipping out to the parking lot, ms. It's so great to feel renewed hope.
And I don't mean to pour any cold water on this, but for anyone who's interested, here is part of what I said and where I was emotionally only a little over 3 weeks ago (the uplift is at the end):
"...Bush and Blair had no moral right to invade Iraq and depose Hussein in the first place because the entire invasion was justified on the basis of falsehoods. They may have had some sort of "legal" right because of the many UN Resolutions. But I could be wrong about that because I never bothered to study the UN Resolutions since I never believed we had a moral right in the first place....
"...Tony Blair and our hanging President should be ashamed, and we should be outraged by the price they have already made young Yanks and Brits and their families pay in the service of the morally bankrupt Bush/Blair invasion of Iraq, as well as the future price we will all pay for the ghastly mis-handling of practically every aspect of this situation.
"We Americans should be so outraged that we all come together and demand the impeachment of our great mis-leaders and incompetents extraordinaire, Bush and Cheney. But most of us are so confused or depressed by the situation that we can't summon up any outrage....
"Yes, we should all be outraged. But somehow, most of us seem to feel only vaguely uneasy or worse, nothing at all....
"That is, we feel that way until Wes Clark starts to speak, and then, at least, we begin to feel renewed hope! Just as some of us felt renewed hope when Gerald Ford took over the Presidency, I firmly believe we will feel similar hope when President Wesley K. Clark begins to lead us out of our latest "long national nightmare"."
And to his everlasting credit, Wes Clark has already been trying to do just that, and he hasn't even started an exploratory committee yet.
Thank you, General Clark. I feel an "inspiring surge" of new hope.
Nick Kelly
Wes Clark will be the national security candidate.
That's all I have time to say right now, but it is worth repeating:
WOW
I hope you got a lot of sleep. You earned it.
this is really something special. Both Wes' discussion and your write-up, ms.
Wes' Wrap Up is so perfect. It leaves me speechless....
So, I'll just say thank you for bringing this to us, ms. :)
- which technically was not the very last word spoken as it came during the final Q's of the Q&A.... but it was so profound. So perfect.
The depth of understanding in that one paragraph is truly "something special" mariner, you're right. It says it all.
MS - Thank you so much for your great account. Hey, how'd you get that special seat?
to the long list!
I'm so happy I saved this until I could sit uninterrupted and read it at leisure! Although I did feel a bit guilty knowing you once again stayed up, burning the midnight oil to share it with us!
You're a treasure ms in la!!
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right. - Hunter/Garcia
that there may be a midnight oil shortage, and I will have to invade some distant nation and kill people to capture more for my late night activities. ;P
I really appreciate your thorough detailing of the General's points. It was a great lecture, and your reporting was excellent.
Digital recorders certainly help, but YOU ROCK, MS!!!
Believe in America's future!!
a hundred thousand thank yous for that....
This part breaks my heart and it is so true:
We further undercut our legitimacy by failing to use the “war as a last resort” standard. He says we went in initially announcing that “we don’t do body counts”, losing our legitimacy on the protection of the innocents. We were incredibly insensitive culturally—it says to them that we’re not concerned about how many civilians we hurt.
This was a great post. I'm so proud to be a Clark supporter, but your report makes me feel so blessed to have followed this man for so long! He's a keeper!
I'm so happy you went. Thanks so much!
I never thought Gen Clark would include St Augustin… but I am glad he is also including the spiritual essence of who we are as people and what kind of responsibility we have. We are all called to be peacemakers no matter what position or background we have…
"I informed him that he was a dynamic speaker-- the likes of which you see seldom in the political arena, and he replied, 'Yeah, I guess he has his performance down.' Any Clarkie would’ve jumped in on that in a heartbeat."
You are so right about that! Before I even finished reading the foregoing, my mind was rolling through responses--and you even had some I did not come up with!
Thank goodness you were there to educate the reporter before the speech. I would say "thank goodness that Wes then proved you right," but we all knew that was going to--and always will--happen.
It's times like this, that you really want to sit down supporters of HRC, Obama and Edwards...then say, ANY QUESTIONS PEOPLE?
The 'Wrap Up' was sublime!
Thank you for your time and effort ms in la.
-Cheers
all the newer names that have stopped by here to read Wes's wonderful lecture. It's good to see the circle widening.
Looks like we will be putting a version of this up at Kos tomorrow or Friday for a wider read. With many thanks for the gracious coding help from Bluemoon! : )
imho, and I am glad you are putting it up on Kos. It needs to be read far and wide and referenced for a long time. I sent it on to a bunch of people.
You are such an incredible writer and you bring us there with your description. Thanks for all your efforts!
I finally registered here and this was the first thing I read after doing so. I had read a brief write up of this speech from a ucla article and was fascinated by what he was saying, as I had gotten into the topic of legalities of the war with someone recently, but to read your full account......no words do him justice or your writing for that matter. I just learned so much and each time I think I can't possibly be more impressed by him....I am. Captivating, informative in ways I never see "political" figures, and he *does* tend to create a "skipping" feeling. lol It must be amazing to witness it in person. :) I'll be passing on your write up to many. It's a *must* read.
We're happy to have you-
If you ever have any questions about this site, either click on the Donkey over there------------------>
at the top... or just shout out and you'll find Clarkies a very accomodating group. : )
There is another version of this over at Daily Kos
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/28/141459/949
and stay tuned for more on the event - possibly with a sound file- in our Generation Whatever Series running later this week on the Front Page, bottom right box!
(renate- you too!!)
And a fine writing style ms. I seldom read a diary all the way through these days. But I read every word and was on my tippy toes all the time. Not many can do that for me. (Well, Tom and some of the folks here can.)
Noel
That was truly impressive.
I rarely post these days (my feeble attempt at time management) but I just had to chime in with a great big THANK YOU for putting in all that time to share that day with us.
General Clark, without a doubt in my mind, is one of the most sincere people I would love to meet, and be proud to say he is our president of our United States.
Thank you for posting this article, and adding in your reactions to his speech.
This article is just another reason why we need General Clark in the White House.
I'm going to sleep now!