Wes on Real Time with Bill Maher 10/26/07
Submitted by Ruth on October 27, 2007 - 12:37pm.
Bill Maher | HBO | Real Time | Wesley Clark
Soon I too will know what's creating all the buzz. If not you R, I'd continue reading "yes he did" "no he didn't" without a clue. Thanks, if you visit my house I'll give you candy.
Oh, and thanks to Verizon, the company that refuses to provide my town with DSL. (/snark)
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.--J. V. Marley
It's crazy how clueless some people are. People at that kos diary were claiming Clark is now for bombing Iran. Did they watch the same show we did? Cripes.
Donna Z, what mean you that you'll soon know what's creating all the buzz?
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Reading through the diaries at Kos without having seen the show made me slightly dizzy. I couldn't figure out WTH they were talking about.
Although, my thanks go out to a few posters over there who have actually lived in moslem countries and took the time to try and educate a some people. I learned a lot. Unfortunately the people doing the most buzzing don't seem to know how to read.
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.--J. V. Marley
What I found interesting is that the people who lived and/or worked there said from first-hand experience, that the women of those countries are mixed in the opinion about their dress, but often lean burka. The opposition diarist appeared to be losing the fight and mounting a lame defense.
Anyway, the people that chimed in offered a great education about the attitudes of the women if one bothered to read their comments.
I can only add that the word "burka" is a "charged" word. People have strong reactions to the term and thus, it is hard for them to move beyond their original emotions. (As an aside, I keep a box of slips with "charged" words written on them, to use with classes. Students, without looking, pick out 5-10 and then have to include them in a poem. It's fun. I'll have to remember to add burka to the mix.)
I think that if General Clark had difficulty arguing for common sense, his problem can be found in connotation. It would take an entire afternoon to educate people about foreign customs and dress. Even then, he'd find plenty of people in the audience unable to follow his thesis. A sound-bite driven show like "Real Time" just won't do.
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.--J. V. Marley
the sound-bite is the problem; would have been 'easy' for him to make his point with time.
I have a little Burka,
I made it out of clay,
and when its dry and ready,
Oh Burka we will play!
(Replaced 'dreidel' with 'burka!' Its a Chanuka song! Your word box sounds great!)
Wes did have trouble getting his point across on that. It's hard to get that point across. Anyone who's not one of the few remaining idiots who thinks Iraq was a good idea is extremely gun shy right now. We're seeing the backlash; that's all. Most people seem unable to see gray. They can only see black and white. The problem was that 90% of the country was seeing black in 2002 when we were looking at a very light shade of gray. Wes was yelling "very light gray, very light gray, very light gray!!!" And those 10% who saw the world as white back then, are saying Wes said it was black. And the 90% who saw it as black, said he was seeing it as white. Now, he's saying, "light gray! light gray! light gray!" and all the people who shifted from black on Iraq because they were dead wrong, are now yelling "white! white! white! we can't make the same mistake again!!!" and hence, as far as they're concerned, Wes is yelling, "black!"
If these people had listened to what he said then and what he's saying now, we wouldn't be in any of this mess.
Your post seems to be talking about Iran or maybe Iraq.
Personally, I had no difficulty understanding what General Clark had to say before Iraq. And since he called it a major geopolitical blunder, I thought he nailed it.
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.--J. V. Marley
LOL! No, you're not one of the black or whiters, Donna, so of course you didn't have any trouble understanding. I was trying to explain why I thought others were accusing Wes of saying we should bomb Iran.
-- those who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't. Most of us here are in the latter category.
That's a brilliant analogy, Shortie. To too many people, anything not pure white is black.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
Wes Clark -- Don't settle for less.
Make America All It Can Be!
...you're a certified computer nerd...like me, who just turned 111100, or 3C in hexadecimal. Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
Wes Clark -- Don't settle for less.
Make America All It Can Be!
On tuesday, Jan 19 of 2038 at 07:14:07 AM EST, All 32 bit computers in existence.. are gonna die. muuwwaahahaha. :D
you are freaking me out; I have a close tie to someone with birthday Jan 19th and
as I always do.... draw astrology charts for study, I just got done with a significant 2038 chart;
it will be an interesting time...... I dunnut know a ting bout computers!
synthetic environment Episode 79: If there's nothing wrong with me maybe there's something wrong with the universe
Home alone with this show isn't so bad!
and Maher has some good writers, eh?
Can I just say this? Andrew Sullivan is crazier than sixty loons locked in an asylum. What a petulant piece of work. He's angry, he's polite, he's beside himself about the reality of global warming. He's pouting, he's agreeable. YIKES!Believes in global warming, now because the "facts" are in & overwhelming.
Claims he didn't believe before because of liberals "faith-based" theories, as opposed to science.
Andrew Sullivan- turns to a personal attack when he can't reconcile himself with his own disastrously crappy judgement. Andrew- Bush has been the President. What exactly did you expect Hillary to do about global warming? Sullivan, actually angry about what a potential future Hillary Clinton would do. ? Bizarre.
Wes points to the frogs boiling in the water- Katrina, polar ice caps melting, the fires.
Sullivan is a rude f___k, jabbing his fingers.
If Hillary Clinton is Cheney in a pantsuit, shouldn't that turn one or another warring part of Sullivan's several selves on? He should be for that then, right?
No one should talk to Islamic women about breast cancer because they wear burkas? That is rather severe.
That "fashion show" was a real piece of work... nothing like reducing an immensely complicated & sensitive subject to a comedy sketch that goes on for far too long. One would have been cute, five or six - all heat & no light & thanks Wes for later creating a teachable moment in such a challenging format, about how we should be exposed to other cultures.
Beautifully stated deft point by Wes about the Cold War & America living in fear for the last 40 years & that the Husseins & OBLs of the world are not a basis for us to give away our freedom & our liberty.
heh, Maher finally shows up near the end about Bush circa 1999.
There are millions upon millions of citizens able to run for President. I agree with Wes.
Maher's "Madison" joke- priceless. :) And an excellent finale.
As ya'll know I'll never in less than a week's time be able to download Ruth's video and I'd rather get the scoop from people I know are truth tellers than those who spin like tops when they're off on a rant like the folks at Kos and elsewhere.
I think he could have done a better job saying what he was trying to say.
Basically, they were all attacking the Saudis for making women wear burkas. And Wes basically tried to tell them to mind their own business. But he said something like they did surveys over there and the women want to wear them or something. Honestly, I thought it sounded ridiculous. But I know Wes and I know what he meant. Freedom cuts both ways. We can't go force our opinions on them. And when Sullivan basically told him he sounded ridiculous, Wes retorted, "How many women in burkas have you talked to?" And that was a good point.
It seemed to me that if you didn't already know what Wes meant, you could have interpreted every thing he said to be extremely right wing women belong in the kitchen talk.
But we all know what he meant. You can't tell other people how to run their lives or you wind up occupying Iraq to promote democracy, and other such oxymorons.
But these damn shows, you can't have real opinions on these shows. It's all about soundbites and "the women want to wear burkas" or whatever the exact quote was, sucks for soundbites.
I don't think Wes was out of line at all.
Look, I'm not a fan of the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia -- unable to go outside their own homes without a male chaperone, unable to drive cars, pretty much segregated in education etc -- but making cheap burka gags just seems very ungrown up humour to me. And SO counterproductive.
I had to stop playing the tape when it got to the Islamic fundamentalist spring fashion parade. Wes was trying to be reasonable but I just couldn't keep watching.
I don't pretend to have wide experience of the Middle East, but I did spend a little bit of time in Qatar last year when there were visitors from all around Asia and the Middle East gathered there. I do have Muslim friends, I've listened to and watched lots of debates in more international media (e.g. Al Jazeera, BBC World Service) about hijab (the various forms of modest dressing for women in Islam, of which the burka is the most extreme) and think it's a shallow interpretation to just decide women who dress like that are oppressed.
It depends on the individual woman, the country they live in, their level of education, their own family and religious values. Sweeping generalisations are useless and just plain insulting.
Making fun of the way other people live their lives, whether they choose it or whether they have that decision made for them is not the way to deal with the world outside america.
You know, some of those "burka wearing women" think that western women wearing short skirts, low cut tops, showing off their torsos in low jeans and midriff tops are being pressured into dressing to please men rather than themselves. And, while I don't necessarily agree, I can see how they might hold that opinion.
But Wes is right. Many Moslem women strongly defend their right to wear the burka (or just a veil). Not all of them, of course. And I do feel for those who are in countries where they have no choice (like Saudi Arabia) but having cheap laughs at the way they look and acting like breast cancer would hardly be a concern when you have to cover up from head to toe .... pleeeeeease!!!
That segment has put me off Bill Maher completely.
You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003
anyone know how big the file is?
Wes Clark: Soldier, Scholar, Statesman.
Yep, it's a big one...
"The mark of leadership is not to standup when everybody is standing, but rather to actually stand up when no one else is standing" - Pulitzer Prize winning author Samantha Power, introducing Gen Clark
Couple of interesting responses on a DU thread about the show last night...
That isn't quite what he said, though.
He asked Sullivan if he'd ever ASKED a woman in hijab how she felt about it. He didn't say they ALL liked wearing burkas. And I think his comments were more directed at the whole concept of hijab, not just the insane chadieris that Laura's pals were wearing.
I seem to recall that Karen Hughes got her ass handed to her for making the assumption that women living in the Saudi Arabian kingdom didn't like their lives or that requirement. When you live under a strongman ruler, your expectations are shaped differently.
I can weigh in here, because I HAVE asked women in hijab how they feel about it, in countries where everyone does it, and in countries where it's optional (or was, before the revolution). Here's what I've come up with, it's by no means the final word, but it might shine a little light:
--The deeply religious see a religious component to it, and would never think about going without it. Ever. They'll slap it on if someone comes to the door, just in case it isn't a relative, or someone that they treat like a relative. Older women, especially, aren't going to change--they didn't even when Shah basically outlawed the thing.
--There's a subset of people who feel comfortable in it for cultural reasons--the "everybody's doing it" attitude. Some of these folks like wearing "chador lite"--what we used to call "see through chadors." Can't get away with those in Iran anymore. They wear it like a fashion accessory, and don't go for the massive head to toe look.
--There are some who think it's "too much." They'd like to adopt the more liberal forms of hijab, but not get rid of it entirely.
--There are some who hate it. They're often the ones who get educated in London or the US and get very irritated when they have to go back home.
--And there are some who like the OPTION, for days when they look like shit and don't want to get all dickey-dooed up.
You will find a variety of attitudes about it, but one thing that is true, is that if a FOREIGNER comes in and starts hectoring about the chador/chadieri/burqua or hijab in general, suggesting that it is repressive or what have you, it puts those who wear it, willingly, happily or reluctantly, on the defensive in a BIG way.
If you don't ask the question in an open manner, you get the "Stay the fuck out of my business, who are YOU to tell me what to do?" attitude.
And while you might not like it polls do show that MANY women in the Middle East do like dressing according to their religious beliefs despite what you or I might consider inappropriate. (Much like the decisions of the Amish, Buddhist monks, Catholic priests and nuns) I read an interview (I'm thinking Vanity Fair, but could be wrong, will try to find a link) that American people have no idea how to think about religious dress, beliefs, or mores outside our own little sphere. That article asserted that many women in the Middle East like the protection and the chasity afforded them by their clothing. I'm not saying that women aren't treated horribly in the Middle East but don't discount what Clark said about Middle East women want to wear burkas because you just can't believe it is true.
I taught in S. Arabia with male and female physicians as students
My female Muslim students came from throughout the Gulf region, including Syrians, S. Arabians, Kuwaitis, Palestinians, Jordanians. I can tell you that when I, a western female, would go into the offices of these women to work with them, the veils came off, and it was a fascinating opportunity to speak--just as women. To this end, I was amazed, but convinced that these women DO NOT wish to change their society and YES, many DO embrace the veil. Some clearly want changes (e.g., the right to drive), but they are appalled at how little we westerners understand of their culture. Yes, horrible things happen in the name of religion in some areas, especially to women in villages, but so, too do horrible things happen in the name of RW fundie "Christianity." They would point out example after example in their attempt to make me see the paradox. It is complicated and Wes Clarke is NOT wrong in expressing what he did. The women I worked with over the years would argue vehemently with our impression of Islam and women in Islam. WOmen in S. Arabia have been able to inherit, and in fact control the financial holdings for many years, going back at least a couple of generations, I was told. While we see this society as patriarchal, it is a blend, just as is our society in the west. Believe me or not, this is information gained through experience with this culture--not just reading American viewpoints.
I've also worked in more liberal Muslim countries, including Egypt and Jordan. My parents lived and worked in Iran before the revolution for an American company. I traveled and visted them the entire time they were there. We are so damned ignorant, unfortunately. The Persians of Iran were so RIPE to ally with America. They were so progressive and western in their views--even after we inflicted them with our installed Shah. There is still a groundswell that would embrace us, if we allowed it to flourish--but instead we have to sterotype them as another ISLAMOFASCIST megaenemy!
Some days I just get so damned disgusted with my country and some Americans....I am sorry to the peaceful followers of Islam. Our country and its policies are rooted in ignorance, I'm afraid.
OT: Did anyone ever consider that Arab women dress like that because they can?
And do it solely to annoy Westerners?
I'm currently reading a book of essays about Arab women by Arab women called 'Arab Women: Between Defiance and Restraint' edited by Suha Sabbagh and one the writers argues such a point. Which leads to me to believe that there was some truth to what Wesley Clark stated in regard to their attire.
"The mark of leadership is not to standup when everybody is standing, but rather to actually stand up when no one else is standing" - Pulitzer Prize winning author Samantha Power, introducing Gen Clark
Same business as 'who do we think we are, invading countries, assuming they want OUR style of government, thinking they'll embrace us?'
Most people 'like' what they've lived with their whole lives, whether or not it appeals to us.
It's that kind of mocking of other cultures that just makes us stupid. There is a lot of oppression of women in Iran, sure, but I took a Human Rights and culture class this summer from a professor who does her research in Iran. She said that the head dress is more of a cultural tradition, not thought of as being men controlling women or anything like that. It's not them being forced not to show their bodies, it's more engrained in the culture and guess what? Some countries have different cultural norms. What is completely normal somewhere else might seem like oppression to us. Stipping women of their right to vote is opporession, the burka is not. Western culture should stop thinking that all other cultures will eventually "evolve" into something like our own!
I had to turn it off. I was actually infuriated. That was beyond satire. It was simply offensive.
Maher has gone off the deep end. :-(
He said that women like that part of their culture and that twit on the left squealed "HOW DO YOU KNOW???" and Wes said "Because I've been over there and talked to women in burkas and asked them! How many women in Burkas have you talked to? Everyone in America should talk to these people and ask them and then maybe there'd be a lot less fear of Muslims in this country."
He was SPOT ON.
I already had my rant elsewhere on the thread before I read your post. Nice to know it wasn't just me that couldn't keep watching.
You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003
After an entire dial-up day, I finally got to watch Wes Clark's "Real Time" appearance. The wait was worth it, although I can certainly see why his words caused some of his past supporters to scratch their heads. There is currently a long diary at Kos that includes some horrible comments. Oh well, so much for the nets.
Earlier I weighted in about the burka bash. This is a highly "charged" subject and not a topic that can be discussed is five words or less. I'm on the General's side: judging a culture that we don't understand is not going to advance understanding.
The Iran-K-L discussion left me with the same feeling that followed the Sam Seder interview. Sad. In his effort to explain Senator Clinton's "yes" vote, General Clark begins his comments with a diatribe condemning the Iranian Guard: they did this, they did that. He makes the case why they are terrorists. What then happens, and it happened here, is that the General doesn't find time to make the case why diplomacy is the way to go. Thus, people are left believing that Wes Clark is itching to bomb Iran. That is of course, not the case. But people hearing whatever they think they hear, are left flummoxed.
I wish that General Clark would set-up his case against the Iranian Guard by first establishing his desire to see the Iranian conflict resolved peacefully. However, perhaps he has decided that defending the Senator's vote is the prime directive. Okay...whatever. But reading the feedback from this long-awaited performance, has made me very sad.
Thank you again R. Your effort is much appreciated.
You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.--J. V. Marley
I feel myself squirming listening to Wes defending it.
I don't doubt the integrity of his judgement, I just still find it hard work understanding his reasoning. Even when he explains it -- and normally he's such a great teacher.
And it's too easy to imagine how it paints the wrong picture of him to so many people :-( I don't even have the stomach to see what reaction it's generated on DKos or DU.
You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003
did Bill Maher REALLY hire blackwater for security at his show; if he did he must be trying to get on the dark sides good lists;
and quite scared;
synthetic environment Episode 79: If there's nothing wrong with me maybe there's something wrong with the universe
Interesting that none of the negative viewers has commented on how Maher picked up WKC's message on the use of fear to gain power by the GOP, and ran and ran with it. (Maher seemingly in total agreement with that idea--as he should be.) All in all, I really enjoyed the insights the General got across. He does ideas, not brainless slogans. It was also great to see Martina looking so good--what a class act she is!!
The General gets it right.
Competence--What a concept!
...you are the ultimate trooper, Ruth.
Many thanks.