Wes Clark & John Dean: On Secrets and Strategy
Submitted by ms in la on October 29, 2007 - 12:17am.
Current Events | Democratic politics | Firsthand Accounts | Iran | Iraq | Wesley Clark
VITAL STATS FIRST: White shirt, Navy jacket, gold buttons on cuffs, red
dotted tie again! Mrs. Clark: Pistachio green scoop neck top and tan pants, looking lovely. They are so beautiful together, they radiate love. It sounds corny, but it's true....
_____________________________________
General Clark has been hopping all over Los Angeles in the past few
days, appearing here and there, no rest for the weary. I heard he even
spoke at Ron Burkle's estate again this week... which had me pondering
if perhaps the reason I was not invited back was because last time I
(accidentally) took some photos of the General that included some of the rare Burkle artwork collection on the walls... so who noticed a few Van Gogh's? After posting them, I got a polite but insistent message from the estate to "please remove the photographs". Immediately. So I guess I may be off their guest list. Heh...
Today's exquisite event was at the estate of Dr. Amarjit S. Marwah, a distinguished smiling gentleman who roamed the grounds greeting people in a white turban with thick white hair peeking out from beneath it. Dr. Marwah is an Indian Sikh, philanthropist, and all around heavy hitter in the community.
You can read more about him here:
http://www.sikhcouncilusa.org/Honorees.aspx
The grounds and lush landscaping were Malibu grand, dotted with fountains and Eastern statuary, offering views to the ocean and the hills. The skies had returned to a crisp blue (thanks Wes!) no more traces of ash, and the sun beat down at 75 degree perfection.
I instantly hooked up with fellow Clarkies from 4 Star Dems and we headed towards the appetizer table while catching up. Susan Blanchard told me she had attended yesterday's book signing event where Wes unwittingly pulled a Giuliani-- It appears Gert had phoned him on his cell while he was doing a book signing to ask about dinner and he told her to go ahead and order Mexican! He said to the people assembled-- "If Giuliani can do it..." Funny, wish I'd been there.
Wes and Gert were right on time and framed in sunlight and smiles as
they strolled onto the estate lawns. Gert immediately recognized Mr in
LA -- walked up and warmly asked how he'd been and remarked how long it had been since she'd last seen him. How do they do that? Both of them
remember everyone they ever talk to, it seems. And it's not fake.
The event was held by the Malibu Democratic Club and was attended by
around 100-200. CSPAN taped it but -- here's the bad news. Right after John Dean spoke, they shut off their camera. And that's when Wes came on stage. Leading me to ask; What's up with C Span?
Presidential candidates had their tables set up and spokespersons to give a short pitch from each one to this well-heeled Malibu crowd. Kucinich's guy said Dennis will be canceling NAFTA in his first week as President, and during his term he will talk to "any leader of any nation at anytime-- to avoid war".
Obama's spokesperson was an older, retired 9th Circuit Judge. He had once helped prevent a nuclear plant from being built in Malibu many years ago. He extolled Obama for being the one to decry the Iraq War prior to invasion in 2002, and remarked what keen judgment that had shown. He said Obama uncannily predicted the disaster that would be, if we did go to war with Iraq. I think I kind of mentioned to our table at the time that yes, he did, and yes, it was in fact exactly one month after General Wes Clark had said the same thing in Congressional
hearings...Oh, look. Those two people sitting next to me have Obama
buttons on. (I was careful to speak in a snark-free tone)
Then he went on about Hillary in a pretty vituperative fashion for a
retired judge I thought. He also said he'd heard Dodd on MTP earlier saying he regretted his Iraq war vote and that he was disappointed at the HRC K/L vote that (this is a quote); "--Authorizes military action against Iran"... the same thing Andrew Sullivan purported on Maher that Wes tried to correct but got cut off too soon to elaborate. I may have uttered a few things at the table at this point too. Fellow Clarkies around know what to expect from me at this point so it's cool. Note to self: Speak to the Judge later.
The Deputy Political Director for California from HRC camp spoke next (didn't catch his name, young guy, pink shirt, no tie) and said he was not going to say anything negative about any of the other candidates running for Dem ticket 08, which got a huge round of applause from the crowd, who was decidedly negative about anything negative. Hey, it's LA.
Hostility has wings and like a bad flu bug can truly hop around from
person to person if you're exposed or in proximity. I always admire
the way Wes can express his anger, his frustrations, yet keep it separate from the personal kinds of hostile attacks often levied at opponents in politics. He has that one down, which is another reason I think he would make such a fine SOS... but that's another story.
Mr. HRC Spokesdude spoke about Wes for at least 3/4 of his short time that he had to push Hillary. He ran down the litany of Wes's credits, praised him for his service - military and other- and gave him a warm if not gushing welcome to the campaign as an endorser. In short, he used his allotted time to honor General Clark instead of pimping for his candidate. We all found that kind of interesting...
Then suddenly-- it's LUNCH TIME!! Yeah!
We all spoon spicy, colorful dishes onto white plates and scurry back to our tables under the tent to await the speakers. I am in love with Indian spices and cuisine so by this time ... I'm in heaven.
Over there is John Dean (hubby has cornered him by now to tell him he's wanted to thank him profoundly for the over 30 yrs. Dean says, "you're not that old!" So Hubby really likes Dean even more now...) And there's Gert and Wes! Here's chicken tandoori, yogurt, naan, curry, and a dozen things I don't recognize but that taste and smell divine. Lingering in the garden amidst exotic Indonesian carvings and statuary .... Life ain't so bad.
I had a few spare minutes before the speakers begin to go talk to the
Judge. A few moments earlier, I had seen Wes and him in some heated discussion and I figured what it was likely about. Still, I wanted to
have a short word. I mentioned the clauses that had initially been
in the Kyl-Lieberman bill, authorizing military action ... that they
had been deleted prior to the vote, and did he know that? He was already pretty mad (I think I may have been the umpteenth person to
bring it to his attention) and told me he didn't believe it. I said,
but the entire text is right there on the gov. site - you can see it for yourself. Including the deleted #3 and #4 paragraphs. He remained unconvinced, said he was going with what Dodd had said earlier and that was that.
Then he squinted at me and asked, "Are you a Hillary person?"
"No", I answered, "--I'm not. I'm a General Clark person... But I've noticed a few people lately publicly discussing the amendment that have not read it. I was just saying... you should read it."
He didn't want to. By this time I'm thinking maybe he doesn't do well online-- Some people don't. I assured him it was short and easy to find. Meanwhile I notice Wes just behind the Judge -- looking over at us. He gives this little smile and nod to me like he knew what we were saying. That was funny. It was clear by now that the Judge wanted to get away from me, but he told me that, despite what anyone said, that language was in the bill she had voted for that gave military authority to attack Iran, and that was his story, stickin' to it. I offered up one more, "Still, you should really read it for yourself" and hobbled back to my table of sympathetic Clarkies.
I reflect for a short minute. Since the Iranian Voices ClarkCast, I peruse Iranian blogs from time to time to capture the pulse of the netroots conversations there. I'd found barely any mention of the K/L issue anywhere there, while we were all sweating bullets over it here. They were, instead, all up in arms about Ahmadinejad's Columbia speech and why he couldn't be questioned at home by students there. There was an engagement and subsequent protest at a University in Iran right after his return home. More arrests, more lies in local media coverage, more angry Iranian bloggers. But I think the youth are not inclined to feel terribly defensive about outside criticisms of their despised government, which may account for why it didn't register on their blog radar.
OK. So it's only 12:30 and I've already pi**ed off one retired Judge, what next?
=================================================
JOHN DEAN-- "We're in a heap of trouble"
Daniel Stern (from "Home Alone") is the MC and intro's John Dean next. (Orange tie! A Kossack?)
** Die hard Clarkies in need of a fix can skip directly to the Wes section below. ;)
Dean's speech was stirring and fascinating. I'd not seen him outside of
YKos this year so it was fresh material to me. He covered the Nixon
years, the trilogy of books he's written including the newest "Broken Government" and why he wrote them. He spoke at length about the dangers of the extreme secrecy practiced by this administration. I hadn't realized that Bill Clinton, during his term, had declassified close to ONE BILLION official documents! I know I've used quite a few of them for research that have been extraordinarily enlightening, especially those pertaining to the Chilean coup in 1973.
Dean has a lot of Cheney material, tells us he still has some excellent
"sources" on the inside for his information, and that Cheney has been
methodically and effectively taking over the presidency of the United
States.
He mockingly explains;
"He lets Bush wake up each day believing that he is the President, letting the Decider decide, but all decisions are based on parameters
and definitions laid out and defined by... Cheney."
"I can assure you, Spiro Agnew did NOT do that." he deadpans to
rampant Dem chuckles.
"A Vice President is accountable to no one. He cannot be fired. The
only way to remove one is through impeachment----"
Well, you can imagine that this "I" keyword kicked off the Dems, who then drowned out the Pacific ocean's waves with hearty (if not
desperate) applause. Just the thought of it... Dean just responded by
saying in resignation that he feels there's not enough time to do that
now and not enough tools.
He then detailed how much further than Nixon these people have
journeyed and the gravity of it that we don't often grasp.
"Nobody died under Watergate, nobody was tortured... this is way beyond even Nixon's wildest dreams"
Dean elaborated in depth about the Authoritarian theory, the comparison
to the populous of Germany in the '30s and-- could it happen here?
Studies show yes, could easily, very easily happen here. He examined 50
years of research before embarking on that book and was alarmed at the
similarities he found in the Leader and Follower groups profiled in the
authoritarian studies. He told us that 25% of the American public fell
into the tested group of authoritarians called "double highs"... the
Hitler prototypes. These people he said are the ones in charge of the
Republican party today. They are typically bullies, stubborn, want to
hear NO other points of view, intolerant, many are extremely
"religious". He notes that Cheney, Rove and Pat Robertson are in this
group as well as his colleague, Chuck Colson. But that the category is personified by Rudy Giuliani... My neck hairs stand up at attention.
And then he rails that the Dems have largely ignored this issue. The
excessive secrecy, the authoritarian bullying.... "Your party have
not called these people out!" In '04, when Dean questioned them
about it, he tells us that the Kerry camp told him they weren't talking about the bush admin. secrecy because it was a "process" and the consultants in all their wisdom had informed them that the Americans aren't interested in processes...
Dean then asked Congress members why they didn't address the historic level of covert goings ons in the government that even had excluded THEM from policy issues, and the answer he got was that they were worried it would make them look like "whiners" and wimps.
Yeah. Wouldn't want that.
Hard to imagine them looking any wimpier than they already do with
their impressive 11% approvals ...
He got terribly serious at this point. "If Dems refuse to call out
Republicans on what they're doing to the process....we're all in a
whole heap of trouble..." He goes on to say that the most
"frightening changes are what they've done to the Federal Judiciary" Heads bobbed in agreement.
Regarding bush's executive expansion of powers:
"It's the Imperial presidency... on stilts and steroids!"
On Watergate:
"The Watergate lesson was: Don't get caught. If you do get
caught, deny it. If you can't deny it, say it's your right."
He ends on a somber note. "We're in a heap of trouble..." he
repeats to the hushed crowd. Here is a warning signal blinking red at us, coming from an unquestionably informed place-- we'd best heed it.
=================================================
GENERAL CLARK~What's your strategy?!
I must report that Malibu loves Wes Clark -- he was truly a man on a mission today. His speech was fired up like I've not seen him before. Maybe it was having Gert there watching him. Maybe it was being in California with the grandkids. Maybe it was the aftermath of the Bill Maher show that really had frustrated him. In any case, the crowd ate it up and he had two separate standing ovations at the end. Two!
Wes began with a discussion about our rights that we are being expected to surrender, as Americans. And how even with 30,000 Soviet nuclear warheads and 6000 missiles aimed at us during the Cold War... we did NOT have to give up our rights.
"Osama Bin Laden is NOT an existential threat to this country. I think it needs to be said again and again."
And I love every time he says it. It does something to dampen down the chilling fear quotient that has been so ramped up in this country. Play it again, General!
He told his Little Rock segregation story that many of you have heard now who've been on the book tour or read the accounts. Followed by the Vietnam reading from the book, only this time - it was more like an action film, packed with sound effects and grit, with Wes barking military commands into the microphone. The cinematic LA crowd seemed to respond extremely well to it. All eyes on the General, all ears.
When he was relating what he told himself after being shot in the jungle; "Focus. Fight. Take charge!"-- It suddenly hit me. That's it! That's why he is eternally so present in person, wherever he may be, whomever he's with. I remarked on it in the Maher show blog and previously. Aha! I said to myself... It's likely the result of a learned survival skill. Focus, fight, take charge. Indeed.
General Clark was full of fury and passion, quite a contrast to the gentle warm ocean breezes in the swaying palms of the surrounding garden.
He then related my favorite story, the Pentagon Policy Coup. This virginal crowd had clearly NOT heard it yet -- you could see they were taking in every word as he related the 7 countries designated to be taken out, the early decision to go into Iraq right after 9-11. The pin drop moment was when he recounted his Wolfowitz conversation where "Paul" talked about his ability to use our military "with impunity" and what he needed to accomplish with them in the middle east in the next five to ten years. (Syria, Iran etc) Malibu Dems, it appeared, had not yet been exposed to this sordid story.
Wes's comment on when George Bush said he was "promoting democracy in the region"--
"Just words, folks. Just words."
On Iran--
"I expect in about 6 to 8 months from now, George Bush will claim victory in Iraq-- He'll bring some troops out. Then he'll ratchet it up on Iran."
General Clark's new buzzword that he says Dems need to address, especially in the 2008 election, is that this administration had / has-- "no strategy".
800 billion dollars. 4000 Americans. 100,000+ Iraqis. A failed state.
It's a LOSING STRATEGY! "What's your strategy?!" He shouted over the microphone repeatedly. It's what the next leader of the country needs to have in spades. Strategy. He cautions us also not to be distracted by the politics of fear in the 08 election cycle.
In the Q and A's (only time for 2) one question was about Vietnam era war and protests versus today. General Clark brought up the draft and stated that; "We're not going to return to a draft. It's NOT gonna happen in this country..." But he ended by encouraging any parents with of age offspring to suggest and proffer the idea of service to them.
The second question came from a reporter who covers India for Asian publications. He mentioned that prior to the Iraq invasion, a CIA representative had come to India to discuss preliminary plans of the invasion with Indian officials and reportedly, the Indian government in the harshest of terms warned against it. Saying that should we go in, an unimaginable insurgency would erupt there and expand out of control. According to the journalist, Saddam had been one of three nation's leaders who stepped up and assisted India in the 90's, when they had a series of deadly terrorist bombings, to help them track down the perpetrators. This too may have played into the rationale for discouraging taking out Saddam...
=================================================
HOT UNDER THE COLLAR
So I stood in the sun in the long book line for Clark and Dean. But I had already gotten my book signed at UCLA, I just wanted a chance to chat face to face briefly. When I got up there, as always, I tried to speak really fast so that other people wouldn't have to wait. It was so truncated, I was reduced to speaking in code! I started with the Sullivan rant on Maher - the K-L perception - (he knows it by "KL" now) and the Judge today, and Dodd, and so on. He was cooking in the hot sun at this point and had just told the person before me how unhappy he was about the Maher show, the burka moment and the rest. So by the time I got up there, it was additional fuel. He's frustrated that people are mischaracterizing K/L as a military authorization and exaggerating its importance (my words) and he's ready to do something about it.
So we are exchanging words on this hot button topic while I step to the side and let others get their books signed.
The General flaps open the covers with purpose then resolutely slaps them closed again as he vents some frustration about it all.
"The worst thing about it is the name!!"
(He had earlier described Lieberman to the crowd as a 'republican in disguise')
Then I asked him what can be done?
He slams open another book and says;
"--I'm going on Kos to talk about it."
Slap that cover closed. Whaaap!
"Kos?"
"Yes. Kos."
"Well, good. When?" I ask - stepping aside for a husband to shoot his wife getting her book signed.
"I don't know. Soon."
And another book cover gets emphatically flipped over as a gruff punctuation.
I tell him it's a great idea, I look forward to it.... and scamper off to find Mr in LA who is chatting with Gert across the lawn. (Gert said to someone that they needed to get going because the grandkids naps were almost over and they wanted to spend some awake time with them! So she sauntered over towards the General to start rounding him up.) : )
Hot under the collar, he is --- and going to address the netroots on it, he will. I can hardly wait to see the Kossack response.
And yet one more time-- into the Lion's Den goeth he.
=====================================================
Spending the day at the home of the Sikh had me 'seeking' by the afternoon. This is what I discovered, and felt like sharing with you all.
"The truest help one can render a man bent with the burdens of life, is to call out his best energies and efforts, so that he himself by himself may raise his sagging spirit, and not only cope with conditions, but come out triumphant in the highest spiritual sense of the word." ~ Bhagat S. Thind, PhD (Sikh author, philosopher; 1892-1967)
...especially in view of some of the other things being said right here in this blog.
Into the Lion's Den, indeed! I've made a point of not visiting Kos recently, but of course I'll be there if I can when Gen. Clark comes on.
I hope that that judge did his homework more thoroughly in his courtroom than he is willing to do on the K-L Amendment.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
Wes Clark -- Don't settle for less.
Make America All It Can Be!
I think we owe it to Wes to be there when he ventures into Kossack waters to say his peace.
I know I will.
Being around Wes is a tonic. With Gert in town, it's doubled. I am now just hoping there is some special chair somewhere in DC with his name on it, from which he can help this sinking ship redirect its course...
"You may say I'm a dreamer--"
it's all over. Keep on dreamin' ms in la, you're in good company!
And with that I wish all 10 users (funny term, that),and 25 guests SWEET DREAMS.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
All "users". Heh.
Hopefully there are no "abusers" online.
I'm off for a bit now. This blogging stuff is time consuming!
It's worth reading it again:
Phil, dreams don't have to end. When I set out from Arkansas to West Point in June of 1962, I had a dream about a journey, a journey of service. That's what life is - it isn't a destination, but it's what you do along the way. You wrote a beautiful letter for me in December...letters like that were one of the reasons I could think about running every day. But don't let the dream of a better America die. That dream isn't about a person, it's about all of us, what we do with our lives, how we affect others around us, how much we give, how much we share. And we can still have the dream of a great America, noble in spirit, true to her values, a beacon of hope, an inspiration for billions, the centerpiece of a new epoch for mankind. Yes, that dream is still there for us...we just have to work for it....it is bigger than any one person, and longer than any lifetime. And it isn't exclusive. Any of us can participate and share that joy. [Wes Clark, blogging to his supporters, 9/16/07]
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
Wes Clark -- Don't settle for less.
Make America All It Can Be!
You know how to paint a picture with words, and really, I could see, feel and smell! what it was like.
We are so incredibly blessed to have you and as busy as you are you always find the time to share your brilliance with us.
Who but you among us would have approached the judge and tried to set him straight? LOL!! What a brave soul you are! Who but you could do such poetic justice to such an intense day.
Damn, this is really, really GOOD! THANK YOU!!!
So cute and touching that Gert recognized and remembered mr in la! He looks different, and even so, she knew right who he was. Amazing people, all of you.
Those of us who are up for it need to be ready for Wes's kos diary. There are quite a few -- according to the results of that poll on that hit diary yesterday -- who have it out for him. Ugh.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
I'll say! He has several pounds less hair now!
I'm convinced they must've taken some course on how to recall people you've only met once or twice years later...
I hope whenever Wes does make the Kos entry you can be there, we all can be there. It will be a choppy ride I'm sure.
You're very sweet Jen -- thanks again for all the encouraging words you always have for everyone around here. Like hostility, hospitality is also infectious. :)
informative, wise, etc., etc., and so forth!
Name of judge?
http://www.fjc.gov/servlet/tGetInfo?jid=1782
Thar you go.
we couldn't have been there without your reporting;
synthetic environment Episode 79: If there's nothing wrong with me maybe there's something wrong with the universe
And in the end
The love you take
Is equal to the love you make.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Thank you so much for this! Wonderful account - and very glad you're safely home too.
"Our public servants work for us - we don't work for them. We have an obligation, as citizens of this country, to always remember that - and to never let them forget it." - DeadMessengers
As for Dean's remarks that German history could repeat itself in this country, I said that in one of my first-ever posts here and got dissed. No, can't happen, I was told. Not the same, I was told.
That scenario, beginning with martial law for a fake reason, has been my deep concern for four-plus years of watching the subtle and sinister changes, and I truly believe these dangerous people have no intention of giving up the throne.
What will American citizens do if they don't? Sometimes I think people fail to march in the streets because they yell on the internets and think they've done enough (present group excepted).
Kathy B. said:
"I truly believe these dangerous people have no intention of giving up the throne.
What will American citizens do if they don't? "
------------------------------
I believe that it's going to come down to getting the American citizens to get up and get out and actually going to vote.
Too, an overwhelming vote is really very, VERY hard to "fix" on the machines.
That's the great problem with democracy.
Getting the citizens to go vote.
Do you think that Hillary cab get the American citizens to actually get out and go vote? (Not just talk about it}.
Clearsky
In the meantime, yes, yes, yes, convince people to vote. Hillary does have quite a machine, and I'm presuming that it will include GOTV.
We'll gather, as we did in 'olden' days, that is, when there was a draft and more of us felt the need, and Dr. King's powerful influence called us.
Some with influence may lead groups.
I sure don't imagine NYC just sitting around; DC is another thing.
And I certainly understand your concern.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788 - 1860)
Congratulations on passing in to stage three of truth!
"Truth is not only violated by falsehood; it may be equally outraged by silence." -- Henri-Frédéric Amiel
Agree Kathy, I think there will need to be (needs to be) marching...
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
Every second of reading your wonderful report, ms. It was a hypnotic.
And then, to top it off was that "going on Kos" goodie. A clear message that Wes is going to use the internets. (I did note that some of the major weekend tv presenters did, over the weekend, talk about the influence of the internets on the national political activity. Haven't heard much on that before now. (maybe Wes heard it too)
Best to you and to Mr. in la too.
(love his screen name) :)
Clearsky
in south Louisiana
Wes said Bush would withdraw some troops from Iraq; then Cheney turns on Iran;
synthetic environment Episode 79: If there's nothing wrong with me maybe there's something wrong with the universe
Westrodamus gave us a date to note... I'll bet money on his prediction.
That would be prime 08 election frenzy time too.
Let's see, how can they portray Rudy as the hero for troop withdrawal? : /
Can't believe you got this up so soon. Thanks so much. As always your FHA is textured with sights and sounds....and yes, smells. ;)
A couple of things stuck out for me...
The fact that the Iranian community in LA isn't up in arms about K/L
That the judge wasn't aware of what had been taken out of K/L
And that the HRC spokesdude spent 3/4 of his time extolling the virtues of Wes, instead of talking about his candidate or slamming the competition.
Not quite sure what to make of the last one....but it has to be good, right?
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to write and post this. It is more appreciated than you will ever know.
Will make sure I'm around when Wes ventures into the lion's den.
People want leadership......and in the absence of leadership, they will listen to anyone who walks up to the microphone.
Lewis Rothschild, in "American President"
for being willing to venture into the Lion's Den with Wes!
RE the Iranian blogs-- those are the blogs from IRAN that I follow! I speak to locals here that I work with and know for their impressions as most have family still there they are in touch with. It's a good touchstone to gauge the pulse on the street so to speak. It's all ya got when you're living in press deprivation...
"...but the entire text is right there on the gov. site..."
Doing a quick google on S.Amdt. 3017 get me to nowhere except here.
Thomas seems to be useless. Only gives the original amendment not the modified one. Point me in the right direction.
K/L as modified (from TPM) has this:
"the United States should designate Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization...and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists."
By doing this, it basically make the Iranian government a "terrorist organization". Nice stick, where's the carrot? Wes continually talks about sticks and carrots and yet the K/L amendment just pokes a stick in the eye of Iran for purely political purposes.
The bill uses as evidence testimony from Ambassador Ryan Crocker, General David Petraeus, "The most recent National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq, published in August 2007", General (Ret.) James Jones and even Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, to make it's case. Well excuse me, but why should I believe any of these Quislings (Ahmedinejad excepted)?
K/L should never have come to the floor for a vote. It is nothing but fearmongering.
"The powers in charge keep us in a perpetual state of fear: Keep us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it by furnishing the exorbitant sums demanded. Yet in retrospect, these disasters seem never to have happened, seem never to have been quite real...."
---General Douglas MacArthur
John 11:35
of things that happened:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:SP03017:
If you follow the link for S12095-12096, you'll see where Lieberman says paragraphs 3 and 4 were taken out.
was somewhere instead of buried. I guess I agree with Joe Biden,
Mr. BIDEN. Mr. President, I will oppose the Kyl-Lieberman amendment for one simple reason: this administration cannot be trusted.
John 11:35
But, I'd also argue that we can't stop doing things we would have done because Bush can't be trusted. That leaves our hands tied and leaves us unable to accomplish our objectives. For that reason, I don't think that "Bush can't be trusted" is a good argument against KL. KL should be argued on its own merits and safeguards, like Durbin and Webb, should be put into place to stop Bush from abusing what we do. That's not to say that I necessarily agree with KL or that Webb or at least Durbin shouldn't have been done first.
But what I am saying is that if we allow our actions to be modified by fear of what GWB will twist them into, then we won't be effective and GWB will be able to claim that we don't have a plan or that nothing we do works. Of course, he won't mention that not only does what he do NOT work, but it also creates disasters. He won't mention that and he'll get away with it because we won't be able to do anything.
Just like we can't be afraid of the terrorists, we can't be afraid of GWB. (And, no, in case anyone from Free Republic is reading, I'm not saying GWB is a terrorist fercripessake.) We have to protect ourselves against their tactics but we should not change who we are and what we believe in to do it.
Wes Clark has always believed in strong diplomacy. We shouldn't let fear of GWB using our backbone stop us from having one. We should use our backbone against Iran, against the terrorists, and against GWB.
Now, granted, one could say that many of the people who voted for KL did it not for that reason. You can say that many of them did it because they won't stand up to Bush and that it demonstrates a lack of backbone in those individuals. But it doesn't say that about all of them. It doesn't say that about Carl Levin and Dick Durbin. I see them as voting for what they think is right even though in this case it may be what GWB thinks he wants.
And, hey, maybe we'll fail to pass the safeguards. And maybe that'll leave us in trouble. But I don't really see that as any different than saying that maybe by preserving our rights, we'll fail to capture a terrorist. Those who give up freedom to obtain temporary safety deserve neither. That applies to liberals as well as to conservatives.
I love this observation shortie "we can't stop doing things we would have done because Bush can't be trusted. That leaves our hands tied and leaves us unable to accomplish our objectivesa"
I applaud this post & your articulation of this- this is the heart of the matter in so many ways.
"I never anticipated that I'd be running for President on a campaign of defending the Constitution!" -Chris Dodd
Emphasis on basic rule of law is why people are covering Dodd with roses- because he decided to actually do his day job! (Not a dig against Dodd, who is a good guy).
We can find our way back to the light in so many ways if we are faithful to process itself- or, the process(es). This vile disregard for rule of law & for process- whether it is counting votes or failing to - the ""It's the Imperial presidency... on stilts and steroids!" as John Dean aptly characterizes it IS an existential threat to this country.
and given what you already know about the bush/cheney/lieberman agenda for Iran, what do you believe IS the best safeguard over the next 15 months?
And btw, I agree with everything you said...on prinicple. Unfortunately too many of our own duly-electeds are um, unprincipled or sadly lacking. Or maybe they're just dumb or somehow can't interpret the oath of office.
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
The best safeguard is starch. Congress needs to do what they believe in. "Bush can't be trusted." Of course he can't. But can Biden? Yeah, right. If they were all doing what they believe in, then Webb would have passed in March. And KL would have passed too--but after Webb. And then it wouldn't have been an issue. And then we would have had our safeguards and our sticks and have been ready to go over to Iran with a bag of carrots.
add a cupful -- no, add a gallon or two-- of Transparency to that Starch before you run the load.
Transparency could have helped the Peeps to see what was hidden, could have resulted in earlier and more profound outrage, could have precipitated action and refusal to submit.
Secrecy- starting with the damned secret energy meetings- has been the toxin to democracy from this administration.
The aftermath of the French Revolution as another historic comparison to our present-day situation (from the NYTimes):
"Bush's Dangerous Liaisons" http://tinyurl.com/yoy8cr
/snip to last four paragraphs/
If the French Terror had a slogan, it was that attributed to the great orator Louis de Saint-Just: “No liberty for the enemies of liberty.” Saint-Just’s pithy phrase (like President Bush’s variant, “We must not let foreign enemies use the forums of liberty to destroy liberty itself”) could serve as the very antithesis of the Western liberal tradition.
On this principle, the Terror demonized its political opponents, imprisoned suspected enemies without trial and eventually sent thousands to the guillotine. All of these actions emerged from the Jacobin worldview that the enemies of liberty deserved no rights.
Though it has been a topic of much attention in recent years, the origin of the term “terrorist” has gone largely unnoticed by politicians and pundits alike. The word was an invention of the French Revolution, and it referred not to those who hate freedom, nor to non-state actors, nor of course to “Islamofascism.”
A terroriste was, in its original meaning, a Jacobin leader who ruled France during la Terreur.
of the deleted clauses 3 and 4 :
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/kyl-lieberman-amendment/?resultpage=8
You can still read the text that was removed. I have heard many people on the air insisting this text was IN the amendment. It's odd, but I guess they have so many documents to read that they can barely keep up with the edits as they occur. Then we do know (wasn't it Conyers who told us?) that they don't read the legislation! It's becoming obvious. Another task to pass on to the people I guess. We are now responsible to read the bills that our "Representatives" - whom we pay to "represent" us- vote on. They are too busy running for President after all.
"They are too busy running for President afterall."
And 4 more...ditto that
Neverthless, what is U.S. policy re: those entities we have tagged "known terrorists"?
...with or without clauses 3-4?
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/13452#comment-244142
and at the gov link included on the post.
It's an economic tool for the toolbox. Which is why the designation is authorized and approved by the Secretary of Treasury before going into effect officially. And Condi. And Justice.
By doing this, it basically make the Iranian government a "terrorist organization".
I've seen this line of thinking before and I'm not sure I can make the jump from the Revolutionary Guard to the entire government. That includes the Judiciary, the Councils, all branches; the whole thing.
When they declared our CIA a terror org... does that in your mind mean they have declared the United States as a whole a Terror Organization? As an aside, I can sort of see where they're coming from with the CIA... were I an Iranian. Generations of Iranians have suffered greatly due to CIA generated coups and meddling in their country. I doubt the populous of Iran is now suddenly on board to bomb the US due to the recent declaration. Tit for tat name calling contests are barely graduated from playground mentality.
I think we are all so traumatized by an administration that jumps and bombs on a whim -- without proper permission or provocation-- that we naturally leap to interpret everything coming down the pike as the gateway to World War III... or IV... whichever one is the War du Jour.
I tend to agree with Wes when he says this non-binder is not going to be the magic key that the bush cheney company has been waiting on the edge of their seats for in order to attack Iran. If it were to be that singular element that provides them with the Mother May I unconditional opportunity to attack Iran militarily... don't you think it would have at least had one line of military authority remaining in the text somewhere?
And say this amendment had never been drafted, voted on and passed. Would bush and cheney and gang just pack up their wagons with their war paraphenalia and head home, pouting?
"I was all ready to bomb Iran and then they wouldn't pass the FTO designation, economic sanctions non-binding bill.... Now I can't"
In a box full of stix-- this one doesn't appear to be the heavyweight log that we in the blogo seem to be portraying it as. Seems it has more puff and more 'press' than it merits. And that's my impression based primarily on General Clark's feeling. I claim ZERO expertise.
If before the neocons leave office entirely discredited for generations they are somehow able to mount an attack against Iran after trying to trump up all manner of justification to do so on the basis of the slimmest, slimmest sort twisted this way & that, it will be on the basis not of K/L.
I think it is much more likely to be a middle of the night surprise, a shock, an "incident" of some kind- you know how they love incidents.
These guys have done nothing but demonstrate that they are not big on rule of law. At all. They do not give a fig. The gasoline is there, quite literally. The dry straw has already been piled up.
K/L in & of itself is not the match.
Even if true, I rather doubt it will be perceived that way tho. By either the right or by the left. Seeing as how we get so caught up in 'political pragmatism' around here these days, I do hope we see the passage of k/l for its potential on that score.
So why validate k/l at all? and yes the Iranians did find it inflammatory enough that their Parliament retaliated in kind.
After the 'midnight surprise'...indeed.
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
...not only the CIA, but the entire US Military. The Iranian governent has a DoD just as we have a DoD.
If not mistaken, k/l is precedent-setting in naming an official branch of any state's military as "known terrorists", which begs the question, is the IRG the first official branch of any military who has engaged in "terrorism"...assuming that they have. And then depending I suppose on how we define "terrorism"...ours? vs theirs?
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
The first time an "official" branch of military. One could argue with the Columbian FTO designations where we named both their right and left militant groups on the list. The FARC (their Revolutionary Guard) had origins as an official arm of the gov't it appears. Had this in some earlier notes in a file: (from Wiki I believe)
----------------------------
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) is a communist revolutionary and armed guerrilla organization in Colombia.
It was established in 1964-1966 as the military wing of the Colombian Communist Party, from which there was an official separation in the 1980's.
The FARC believes that since the early 1980s it has met the requirements for the recognition of a "state of belligerence" contained within the Geneva Conventions of August 12, 1949 and additional protocols. In 1982, FARC added ranks and badges to many of its uniforms, as well as introducing a new inventory system for firearms and ammunition, in addition to providing new weapons and technology for FARC militants. In theory, a properly organized and trained guerrilla army would thus meet the international requirements for the recognition (of a "state of belligerence"), contained within the Geneva Conventions.
----------------
So there was at one point anyway - some "officialness" surrounding them. They are number 35 on our FTO list along with their rivals, the United Self Defense Forces of Columbia, AUC- number 42. Who are the extreme right militia.
"official separation"
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
Re their declaration of the entire US military as a terror org.... can't get behind that one. Too wide a blanket to even have much meaning. Would that they had named some names from the five sided bldg guys-- I could understand that.
Were I them, I might declare the American Enterprise Institute, the Heritage Foundation and PNAC terrorist organizations. But they make lousy targets...
Radical, eh?
didn't they? I think it's just that simple. Placing our troops in the ME squarely in their cross-hairs as we did theirs. Only rhetorically? perhaps - perhaps not. Nevertheless...way to support our troops, that k/l "sense of the senate".
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
I have no business commenting on their resolution, other than purely speculatively, because I have not actually read it. If in fact theirs is a parallel to ours and has no military authority defined in the text, or if as you indicate they have put our troops in "crosshairs" and have authorized military actions therein... I just don't know.
It does make me weary to leap so much. I'm getting older and my joints don't support it.
So many flying sticks and stones, pieces of paper with name calling and important signatures authorizing name calling, but only if it's non binding-- whatever that means. How does a binding name-calling differ?
I have to get to my binding employment now! In the meantime, would love to see the text of it, (the Iranian resolution re CIA, US Military that is) if anyone has it handy.
Based on middle eastern news outlets, it was a parallel to k/l. Of course, you would have to have an inkling to finding their news sources credible, I suppose. Haven't read their actual resolution document, which would be best, admittedly.
"We are involved in an endless War for nefarious purposes. There hasn't been anything like this since the founding of our Republic, in my opinion." -- General Wesley Clark NYC 6/19/06
Wonderful report...Thanks so much for sharing it with us....Sounds like an amazing day. I'm jealous. :P
"The mark of leadership is not to standup when everybody is standing, but rather to actually stand up when no one else is standing" - Pulitzer Prize winning author Samantha Power, introducing Gen Clark
You are my 'Merican Idol, Missie! :-) This is one terrific FHA, following an equally wonderful FHA - how do you do it?
Oh, I love the way you phrased this...shades of Yoda, hmmmmm?
"Hot under the collar, he is --- and going to address the netroots on it, he will." - msinla
The netroots might be wise to heed that fictional character:
"You will find only what you bring in." - Yoda
Thanks for this terrific account!
"You will find only what you bring in"-- Yoda
Looks like I was kind of plagiarizing Yoda when I wrote the Stretching For Wes Clark blog in September--
"My experience with humans is-- they will generally find whatever it is they set out to look for in a situation, a person, a place".-- ms
Per usual, Yoda --much more pithy than I, he was.
You've made my day--and that's a good thing for a Monday:)!
I hope your Maher blog goes on Kos--and that when WKC posts over there--no coward he!!--it does not go unmentioned that Maher spent much time restating and supporting WKC's argument onnthe GOP use of fear to gain power. He also reiterated the General's comment that Bushco do no need K/L to go to war. The hatefilled Kossacks seemed to have missed this.
Bless you for taking on that judge--strange that he is so willingly blind to info against his world view. Kind of gives one confidence in out court system--not!!
The General gets it right.
Competence--What a concept!
We are so bereft of political voices these days who have an airwave or two to represent We the Peeps, that in our desperation we tend to confuse entertainers who may generally agree with us as journalists or representatives.
Maher is a comedian. Stewart is a comedian. Colbert is a comedian. Keith Olbermann is an anchor, former Sportscaster. They are all a breath of fresh air when contrasted with the MSM puppets running an endless loop of trashbloid news, but they are-- at the end of the day-- not Walter Cronkite or Bill Moyers. Maher has this little 20+ minute gap to fill, to make people laugh every Friday night. He's not all that well informed and his sources are often suspect, yet he does go out on a limb occasionally and buck the trends, which in itself is healthy. But as a comedian, he doesn't have to meet the highest journalistic standards of ... a Moyer. And he often falls short.
I can understand Wes's frustration with appearing on the show -- not being given the time to correct or define things said. Maher probably feels no compunction to indulge such editorial corrections.... given his job description, he only needs to make it move, and to make it funny. And that is and always has been a hit and miss, imprecise, risk-filled art form! : )
If we had - like I always say- only 4 regular frontline MSM anchors who insisted on reporting the truth in the proper priority order, who editorially had control to rank the stories in the proper priority order-- If we had that-- we would watch Maher and Stewart for light hearted diversion and a chuckle at the end of the day. Not for "news".... It is truly such a pathetic state we have ended up in this country to be news deprived in the most powerful nation in the world. Welcome to the News Desert. :(
And thanks for the nice words!
from the Golden State! I know your hubby is that singer & all but oh how I love it when you croon.
Thank you! There's a lot to ponder here.
Page 9 of K/L has some added text that was included in the amendment in addition to the clauses designating military power that were removed. Here is the text of one of the two added clauses:
-----------------------------------------------------
Insert prior to section (6) the following:
(17) Sec of Defense Robert Gates stated on September 16, 2007 that;
"I think that the administration believes at this point that continuing to try and deal with the Iranian threat, the Iranian challenge, through diplomatic and economic means is by far the preferable approach. That's the one we are using. We always say all options are on the table, but clearly, the diplomatic and economic approach is the one that we are pursuing."
----------------------------------------------------
This language was one of the modifications made prior to vote and was considered inserted on this page below just before item 6.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/kyl-lieberman-amendment/?resultpage=8&
This addition, and the deletion of clauses 3 and 4, are never discussed in all these lengthy debates on this issue. Leading one to question again-- who is reading first, concluding afterwards? And who is concluding without reading? Not sure what it actually changed by adding Gates' statements... but it was obviously tagged on for some clarification reason and concurred with prior to going to vote as a needed "improvement". And it pretty clearly states that the economic, diplomatic intent is the preferred and the pursued approach. It is the opinion of Gates, so not sure again how it alters anything, just colors it I guess.
Forgive the sucky formatting on this blog. In a hurry and the word wrap was playing tricks with me for some reason.
Read it like a poem and it may make more sense! Heh... ;b