ANALYSIS: The tough BUT fair questions I have NOT heard Barack Obama answer yet!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on December 12, 2007 - 11:45am.
Rapid Response
Hello Everyone:
Because of how high that the cost will be if the Neocon controlled Republican nominee wins the 2008 Presidential election (he will pick up right where Bush leaves off on Neocon foreign policy and on other issues on 1/20/09), I think that Democrats need to make sure that they get it right about who they nominate.
Hillary Clinton is viewed as being the most electable 2008 Democratic Presidential candidate based on all of the major polls that I am looking at right now:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/14095
Polls show that Hillary Clinton is the most electable 2008 Democratic candidate!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on December 11, 2007 - 10:38am.
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/13848
GALLUP: Clinton Best Odds of Being Elected President & Clinton Eclipses Giuliani
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on November 9, 2007 - 3:48am.
Hillary Clinton is a very well known person who we know for sure what we are getting in a Democratic nominee. I do not think that we will see very much come up about Hillary in the general election that we do not already know about right now!
That can hardly be said about Barack Obama being so new on the scene with not much known about his past to the entire country. Any "surprises" that come up about Obama during the general election that we do not already know about right now could possibly be deadly and might cost Democrats the 2008 election. This is exactly why the tough but fair questions need to be asked of Obama right now BEFORE any primary votes are cast!
Here are some tough but fair questions that I can see Barack Obama being asked in the general election which I have not seen him credibly answer yet:
1) You mention that "Washington experience" is not needed which most people would probably agree with but that is not the real question. The real question is about your foreign policy and national security experience in order to be able to handle whatever Bush leaves behind in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, and anywhere else in the world. Here is what you told Larry King about your experience:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0703/24/lkl.01.html
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Encore Presentation: Interview With Barack Obama
Aired March 24, 2007 - 21:00 ET
KING: "How do you react to the "St. Petersburg Times" writing a view, "The world is too complex and dangerous for this likable, charismatic African-American neophyte to practice on-the-job training? Why should Americans trust you to lead them in difficult times?" Is experience a fair issue?
OBAMA: I think experience absolutely is a fair issue. Ad I am happy to put forward my experience against the other candidates. My experience as a community organizer means that I know how to bring people together to solve problems at the grassroots level, as well as at the legislative level. My experience as a civil rights attorney means that -- and as a constitutional lawyer means that I'm going to be mindful of our civil liberties and our civil rights in a way that this administration has not been. My experience as a state legislator, reaching across the aisle to solve difficult problems, like reforming a death penalty that's broken, or expanding health care to children who didn't have it, or passing ethics reform even against the objections of some people in my party, I think those are experiences that will signal to people that I am not about business as usual.
And I think even in the United States Senate, over the last several years, my work with people like Senator Dick Lugar, Republican of Indiana, on proliferation of weapons, trying to curb the proliferation of weapons, or working with Republican Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma on creating more transparency in government, those are all experiences that I think are going to be relevant to the American people. And I feel very confident that if they know my vision and what I've accomplished in the past, that we will end up doing very well..."
What does any of this specifically have to do with foreign policy, national security, and being able to inherit and fix the huge foreign policy mess that Bush will leave behind on 1/20/09?
Here are the posts that go into further detail about this question:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/11596
TRANSCRIPT & ANALYSIS: Larry King specifically asks Obama about his "experience"
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on March 27, 2007 - 3:41pm.
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/10998
ANALYSIS: Obama is trying to shift attention away from Foreign Policy Experience
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on February 9, 2007 - 3:24pm.
2) You made this statement about "the strongest experience I have in foreign relations:"
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/20/clinton-hits-obama-on-foreign-relations-experience/
November 20, 2007
Clinton hits Obama on foreign relations experience
"On Monday, Obama told an Iowa audience, "Probably the strongest experience I have in foreign relations is the fact that I spent four years living overseas when I was a child in Asia—Southeast Asia."
According to the campaign, Obama was six years old when he moved to Indonesia in 1967, and stayed until he was 10.
Obama said his time there and the fact that his father is from Kenya gives him the knowledge "of how ordinary people in these other countries live..."
What kind of assurance will that give to the general public that you are ready to inherit and fix what Bush will leave behind on 1/20/09? Also, what will you tell the 2008 GOP nominee if it is Rudy Giuliani and he brings this up and compares this statement to his running New York City after 9/11 or if it is Mitt Romney and he compares it to his running an entire state?
Here is the post that goes into further detail about this question:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/13948
Obama said strongest foreign relations experience was living overseas as a child
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on November 21, 2007 - 9:17am.
UPDATE: Obama also brought up this issue again in April of 2008 which I thought was a big mistake that Hillary should have taken better advantage of:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/15328
AUDIO: Obama claimed to "know more" about the world than both Hillary or McCain!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on April 21, 2008 - 7:33am.
Hillary in my opinion should have used Obama's own ridiculous foreign policy experience quotes against him in her campaign ads and in primary debates!
3) You promised BOTH in November of 2004 and in January of 2006 on Meet The Press that you would definitely NOT run for President or for Vice President in 2008 and that you would serve your full six-year Senate term:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6430019/
Meet The Press Transcript for November 7, 2004
Guests: Karl Rove, senior advisor to the president; Senator-elect Barak Obama, D-Ill.; Maureen Dowd, columnist, New York Times; William Safire, columnist, New York Times
MR. RUSSERT: "Before you go, you know there's been enormous speculation about your political future. Will you serve your full six-year term as U.S. senator from Illinois?
SEN.-ELECT OBAMA: Absolutely. You know, a little--some of this hype's been a little overblown. It's flattering, but I have to remind people that I haven't been sworn in yet. I don't know where the rest rooms are in the Senate. I'm going to have to figure out how to work the phones, answer constituent mail. I expect to be in the Senate for quite some time, and hopefully I'll build up my seniority from my current position, which I believe is 99th out of 100.
MR. RUSSERT: Barack Obama, we thank you for sharing your views.
SEN.-ELECT OBAMA: Thank you so much..."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10909406/
Meet The Press Transcript for January 22, 2006
Barack Obama, James Carville, Paul Begala & Mary Matalin
MR. RUSSERT: "There’s been enormous speculation about your political future, Senator. The man you succeeded in the Senate, Peter Fitzgerald, a Republican, said this recently. “I think there’s a very good chance that Senator Obama is on the Democratic ticket in 2008 as the vice presidential nominee.” Do you agree?
SEN. OBAMA: No. You know, I can’t speculate on those kinds of things. What I have said is that, you know, I’m not focused on running for higher office, I’m focused on doing the job that the people of Illinois just sent me to do.
MR. RUSSERT: But there seems to be an evolution in your thinking. This is what you told the Chicago Tribune last month: “Have you ruled out running for another office before your term is up?” Obama answer: “It’s not something I anticipate doing.” But when we talked back in November of ‘04 after your election I said, “There’s been enormous speculation about your political future. Will you serve your six-year term as United States senator from Illinois?” Obama: “Absolutely.”
SEN. OBAMA: I will serve out my full six-year term. You know, Tim, if you get asked enough, sooner or later you get weary and you start looking for new ways of saying things. But my thinking has not changed.
MR. RUSSERT: So you will not run for president or vice president in 2008?
SEN. OBAMA: I will not.
MR. RUSSERT: Senator, thank you very much for your candor and for joining us and sharing your views.
SEN. OBAMA: Had a great time, Tim. Thank you..."
These were not Larry Craig "I intend to" kind of statements, they were more like George H.W. Bush "read my lips" type of statements.
What significant thing changed in 9 months from 1/22/06 when you firmly promised to serve out your full 6 year Senate term and promised NOT to run for President or VP in 2008 to 10/22/06 when you felt that you had to break those definite promises that you made?"
Also, if you broke your firm promises NOT to run for President or VP in 2008 and to serve out your full six-year year Senate term, then how can anyone know for sure that you will keep any future promises that you make during the general election?
Lastly, how can you be ready to be President right now when you made this statement about yourself in November of 2004?
SEN.-ELECT OBAMA: "I don't know where the rest rooms are in the Senate. I'm going to have to figure out how to work the phones, answer constituent mail. I expect to be in the Senate for quite some time, and hopefully I'll build up my seniority from my current position, which I believe is 99th out of 100."
Here is the post that goes into further detail about this question:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/10648
TRANSCRIPT: Obama Promised one year ago Today NOT to run for President in 2008!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on January 22, 2007 - 2:23pm.
4) You said said on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 that you are not worried about swiftboat attacks and that you do not pay much attention to what Mitt Romney says about you:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21562193/
Democratic Presidential Candidates Debate for October 30
Read the transcript from the special coverage
updated 11:16 a.m. CT, Wed., Oct. 31, 2007
DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES PARTICIPATE IN A DEBATE
SPONSORED BY MSNBC
OCTOBER 30, 2007
BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC ANCHOR: "Senator Obama, we’re going to transfer into a new area here. A question specifically for you because you’re in a rather unique position. It’s about religion and misinformation. Governor Romney misspoke twice on the same day, confusing your name with that of Osama bin Laden.
Your party is fond of talking about a potential swiftboating. Are you fearful of what happened to John McCain, for example, in South Carolina a few years back; confusion on the basis of things like names and religion?
OBAMA: No, because I have confidence in the American people.
OBAMA: And I don’t pay much attention to what Mitt Romney has to say—at least what he says this week. It may be different next week..."
Do you understand why John Kerry lost in 2004 and do you understand exactly what you will be up against if you are the 2008 Democratic nominee? Do you understand the key points that authors Mark Halperin and John F. Harris made about both the 2004 and 2008 elections in their book titled "The Way to Win: Taking the White House in 2008?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/03/AR2006100301030_pf.html
The Way to Win: Taking the White House in 2008
Chapter 1: The Way to Lose
By Mark Halperin and John F. Harris
Tuesday, October 3, 2006; 6:08 PM
"The bottom line was that the Bush campaign and its allies did a better job than the Kerry campaign and its allies in using the Freak Show -- its magnification of the personal and negative -- to define the opposing candidate. But the story as told in this chapter is a tactical one. What is more important for the next presidential election is the strategic reality that the Freak Show does not affect both parties equally.
The dynamic in 2008 will be the same as it was in 2004. There are structural issues in politics and media that now favor Republicans over Democrats. Freak Show politics will represent only a moderate threat to Republicans and give them a major advantage as they try to define the opposition on unfavorable terms. On the other side, Freak Show politics offers virtually no advantages for Democrats, but will again present a huge threat to any politician hoping to keep control of the narrative of his -- or her -- life story..."
Do you really understand how truly powerful that Rush Limbaugh and the Neocon GOP attack machine really are:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/13578
ANALYSIS: Why Rush Limbaugh is so powerful & what many media pundits do not get!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on October 10, 2007 - 1:47am.
Here are the posts that go into further detail about this question:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/13894
ANALYSIS: Statements from Obama that show his lack of electability if nominated!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on November 14, 2007 - 10:46am.
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/13782
Barack Obama will be swiftboated & will get eaten up alive if he is the nominee!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on November 1, 2007 - 3:49am.
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/13433
ANALYSIS: Why I think that Obama would be a very weak general election candidate
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on September 24, 2007 - 9:01am.
If I could think of these questions, then so will the 2008 GOP nominee, Rush Limbaugh, FOX News and company!
It is very important in my opinion that all of these questions are specifically answered by Barack Obama BEFORE any primary votes are cast because of how very high that the cost will be IF we lose the 2008 Presidential election!
Mitch Dworkin
http://www.securingamerica.com/
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/10756
StopIranWar.com: "War is not the answer"
Submitted by Wes Clark on February 21, 2007 - 11:40am.
http://www.securingamerica.com/ccn/node/7191
Listen to Gen. Wes Clark fight for Dems on Sean Hannity's radio program: An excellent example for all of us to follow and what we all need to be doing to help fight back against extreme right wing Neocon smear propaganda!
...fellow, because I have pledged (12/12/07) to refrain from posting negative comments about President and Mrs. Clinton's crusade to retake the The Oval Office, likewise I must desist from promoting or defending Barack Hussein Obama (BHO)on this forum.
Please see 'ms in la's blog' in re former Alaskan Senator (circa 1970s) Mike Gravel where you will find that I have declared my pre-conditions to supporting the good Senator. Should ms bring my conditions to fruition, I will be delighted to join the NYC Gravel campaign.

Just try writing your own analysis and add links. Also, there are so many people here who do support Obama, it doesn't help to provoke them.

Are we now not supposed to post anything that raises concern about Obama being our nominee? I read a post at The Left Coaster that I found very compelling, and the information will be used against Obama if he wins the primary. So I am supposed to keep that information to myself, or go post it at Hillary's blog? That seems like where we've come to. If I post it here, those supporting Obama will label it a "hit piece" and attack me personally, or as Westcott "promised," prompt posts attacking Hillary. So that's where we are now? Just wondering.
And for those who think we are being censored against posting anti-Hillary pieces, I personally feel censored by a few pro-Obama people here.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right.

I think it can be a comment on the general discussion with a link if you think it's important. I just don't want to get into any more fights around here like we've been having.

I thought that LJM was talking about the length of Mitch's posts, not necessarily their thrust. Mitch is an equal-opportunity oppo research engine.
I would think that anything in any candidate's record would be open season, but name-calling and attacks on the candidate's personal worth are off-limits.
Or at least I hope so. But I think that this is the spirit of "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism" and therefore the CCN. Remember that one of the legs of the New American Patriotism stool was "principled dissent."
Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
Wes Clark -- Don't settle for less.
Make America All It Can Be!
will probably come up in the egeneral election IF he is the nominee!
I do not think that I am provoking Obama supporters here by criticizing and asking the tough questions about Obama anymore than Gen. Clark is when he is openly criticizing Obama:
2008 and Counting: Gen. Clark says Obama started it all
By The Hill Staff
December 06, 2007
"Retired Gen. Wesley Clark, a 2004 presidential candidate who is now a supporter of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), said Clinton’s rival for the Democratic nomination, Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.), is to blame for the recent volley of barbs between the candidates.
“I was at the debate in Philadelphia,” Clark said in a Wednesday conference call with reporters organized by the Clinton campaign. “That’s where it really started, and I think it started with Barack advertising that he was going to go on the offensive and start attacking.”
Clark said that October night in Philadelphia was when “the tone of the campaign started to change.”
“I think it is clear who started the attacks and why,” Clark said.
The four-star general was in Iowa campaigning for Clinton as the campaign rolled out a new ad featuring Clark speaking directly to the camera.
In the ad, Clark says: “I see that Hillary’s opponents have started attacking her. That’s politics. What this country needs is leadership.”
“I’ve known Hillary Clinton for 24 years,” Clark says. “I know she has what it takes to end the war in Iraq, avert war with Iran, and restore our country’s standing in the world...”
This is Gen. Clark's blog, I completely agree with him on this, and I will post criticisms of Obama and ask fair questions about him if I think that they are an issue or even a potential issue in the general election!
I definitely do NOT think that people here are being provoking by posting criticisms about Obama when Gen. Clark is openly criticizing him and when this is Gen. Clark's blog!
these key points:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/28/se.02.html
CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL
Campaign Killers: Why Do Negative Ads Work?
Aired November 28, 2007 - 23:00 ET
"(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served with John Kerry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served with John Kerry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam.
CAMPBELL BROWN, HOST (voice-over): It was a minor ad buy in just seven inexpensive media markets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Swift boat. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Swift boat.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: That swift boat...
BROWN: But it became the dominant news story of the 2004 campaign.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry lied.
BROWN: The attack didn't come from a campaign but rather a group of Vietnam vets attacking the candidate who had billed himself as a war hero.
STEPHANIE CUTTER, KERRY '04 COMMUNICATIONS DIR.: When I first saw the ads, I thought, this is crazy. There's no way that these accusations are going to hold up.
BROWN: Stephanie Cutter was John Kerry's communications director.
CUTTER: The old rule of crisis communications is that you don't respond to an attack, otherwise you elevate it.
BROWN: It took two weeks for Kerry to speak out.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), 2004 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're not telling the truth. They're a front for a Bush campaign.
BROWN: But by then the damage was done. CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: People figured, well, if he's not answering the ads, the charges, they must be true.
BROWN: What was especially troubling to some was that Naval records and eyewitness accounts by other sailors contradicted just about every claim the swift boat vets made. But it didn't seem to matter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ad was misleading.
BROWN: John Gere (ph) is a political scientist from Vanderbilt University.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The real problem with the swift boat ad isn't the content of the ad, per se, it's the fact -- the attention the news media gave it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They served their country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It actually got more attention than the Iraq War. That strikes me as a problem because the Iraq War was the big issue in 2004. Swift boat wasn't.
BROWN: Yet the swift boat ad may well have been the lethal blow to Kerry's campaign. The attack has even added a new term to the political lexicon, swift-boating a candidate. It also demonstrated the power of independent groups, the damage they can do while allowing the candidate they support to claim innocence...
BROWN: Experts say Dukakis ignored the basic rules of campaign combat. When attacked, attack back. Don't let them turn a positive, for example, his environmental record, into a negative. And always, always remember any picture can come back to haunt you. Tried and true strategies that have been used for centuries...
BROWN: Fast forward now to 2004, when technology once again changed the battlefield.
JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you have any question about what John Kerry's made of --
BROWN: Swift Boat's power was magnified by the nonstop play it got on the Internet, blogs and 24-hour cable news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- for that injury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry lied to get his bronze star. I know. I was there. I saw what happened.
BROWN: There was plenty of evidence to contradict the ad, but it didn't matter. The charges seemed to stick.
MCKINNON: I knew it was going to have a huge impact, and the only surprise was that the Kerry campaign didn't respond quicker.
STEPHANIE CUTTER, KERRY CAMPAIGN COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: In retrospect, we probably should have had him respond earlier. And there was much debate about that in the campaign.
BROWN: Stephanie Cutter, Kerry's communications director --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Navy documented John Kerry's heroism --
BROWN: Says the campaign did put out a response to the attack.
VANESSA KERRY, KERRY-EDWARDS 2004: Which wound do you want to see? Which scar do you need to see to prove --
BROWN: But that they underestimated the power of the new media environment.
CUTTER: We didn't understand at that point the power of right wing blogs, how that seeps over to Fox News, gets covered by the mainstream media, and seeps out into the general public. By the time you're responding to an attack like that, the damage is already done.
DUKAKIS: When something like that happens, you've got to put responsibility for it squarely in the lap of your opponent.
We go through these cycles over and over again.
BROWN: From the man who made his share of mistakes, some words of advice for surviving the attacks to come.
DUKAKIS: Any candidate who is running for the presidency of the United States, particularly on the Democratic side, has got to expect them. They're going to be coming. They already are...
BROWN: With the 2008 presidential election now less than a year away, there are more viral attack videos being uploaded every day. Search Youtube, and you can find Rudy Giuliani dressed in drag and John Edwards combing his hair.
Campaigns, though, are fighting back. For example, Hillary Clinton now has an entire website dedicated to rapid responses to issues and attacks that come out of nowhere..."
Barack Obama responding in question 4 in this post to Brian Williams like this shows to me that he does NOT understand what it means to be swiftboated and negatively defined as a candidate by the other side which puts his electability as a general election candidate into very serious question in my opinion:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21562193/
Democratic Presidential Candidates Debate for October 30
Read the transcript from the special coverage
BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC ANCHOR: "Senator Obama, we’re going to transfer into a new area here. A question specifically for you because you’re in a rather unique position. It’s about religion and misinformation. Governor Romney misspoke twice on the same day, confusing your name with that of Osama bin Laden.
Your party is fond of talking about a potential swiftboating. Are you fearful of what happened to John McCain, for example, in South Carolina a few years back; confusion on the basis of things like names and religion?
OBAMA: No, because I have confidence in the American people.
OBAMA: And I don’t pay much attention to what Mitt Romney has to say—at least what he says this week. It may be different next week..."
supporter MA Governor Deval Patrick when he tried to explain this statement away "Probably the strongest experience I have in foreign relations is the fact that I spent four years living overseas when I was a child in southeast Asia" by saying "that any president has access to the best experts in foreign policy theory on the planet. And President Obama would as well:"
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/20/sitroom.03.html
THE SITUATION ROOM
Interview With Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick
Aired November 20, 2007 - 18:00 ET
BLITZER: "The other day he said this. He said, "Probably the strongest experience I have in foreign relations is the fact that I spent four years living overseas when I was a child in southeast Asia." He lived in Indonesia from the ages of 6 to 10.
GOV. DEVAL PATRICK (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Yes.
BLITZER: To which Hillary Clinton, in a statement that's just been released, really pounded. Listen to this. This is what she says.
"Now voters will judge whether living in a foreign country at the age of 10 prepares one to face the big, complex international challenges the next president will face. I think we need a president with more experience than that."
As someone who supports Barack Obama, what do you say to Hillary Clinton?
PATRICK: Well, listen. I understand the -- I understand the point. But the fact of the matter is, is that any president has access to the best experts in foreign policy theory on the planet. And President Obama would as well..."
Does that statement mean that Barack Obama would need to have these kind of people around to help him make tough foreign policy decisions due to his lack of FOREIGN POLICY EXPERIENCE (as opposed to his lack of "Washington experience" that he always mentions which is NOT the real issue here)!
Would his previous "mentor" Joe Lieberman be one of these people who he would listen to on foreign policy?
Obama rallies state Democrats, throws support behind Lieberman
By Stephanie Reitz, Associated Press Writer | March 31, 2006
HARTFORD, Conn. --"U.S. Sen. Barack Obama rallied Connecticut Democrats at their annual dinner Thursday night, throwing his support behind mentor and Senate colleague Joe Lieberman...
Lieberman became Obama's mentor when Obama was sworn into the Senate in 2005. They stayed close at Thursday night's event, too, entering the room together and working the crowd in tandem..."

National security is often treated as an equal among many equals by too many Democrats. Certainly we are all concerned about social security, health benefits, personal privacy issues, infrastructure, and more. The president is not "king" of these issues, however. She can suggest legislation and jawbone for its passage, but little more. Foreign policy and its application is, however, the purview of the president. We must nominate someone grounded in the details of classical negotiation and that person is Hillary and her supporting cast of Wes Clark and Holbrooke.