about 01:25 and then Tara Wall and Tucker Carlson in my opinion were looking at Gen. Clark through a partisan political lense as opposed to the true context of what he really meant.  I like how that Dan Abrams brought up the issues of Charlie Black and playing the game of "gotcha:" 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25466333#25466333  (07:51)

Do Clark’s comments hurt Obama?
June 30: Did Gen. Wesley Clark do Barack Obama a disservice by bringing up John McCain's military service?  Dan Abrams is joined by Huffington Post editor Roy Sekoff, The Washington Times' Tara Wall, and MSNBC chief campaign correspondent Tucker Carlson.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25466333#25466333  (07:51)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25478210/

'Verdict with Dan Abrams' for Monday, June 30
Read the transcript to the Monday show

Guest: General Wesley Clark, Tara Wall, Roy Sekoff, Brian Wice, Nicole DeBorde, Tucker Carlson.

DAN ABRAMS, HOST: "Breaking tonight: General Wesley Clark with us live for his first interview since he ignited a major controversy yesterday by questioning the relevance of John McCain‘s military service as a POW in Vietnam.

The question: How significant is it in this campaign? The McCain camp jumped on the comments by Clark who‘s now an Obama supporter, linking them to Obama‘s campaign saying, quote, “Obama‘s words don‘t really match up with the way he‘s running the campaign.”

Joining me now is General Wesley Clark.

General Clark, thanks very for joining us. We appreciate it. You set off quite a firestorm here with both the McCain and Obama coming out and rejecting your comments. First, let me play the comments at issue from CBS yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “FACE THE NATION”/CBS/SUNDAY)

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, OBAMA SUPPORTER: I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voiced on the Senate Armed Services Committee and he has traveled all over the world but he hasn‘t held executive responsibility.

That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn‘t a war- time squadron. He hasn‘t been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn‘t seen what it‘s like when diplomats come and say, “I don‘t know if we can get this point through or not. If you want to take the risk, what about your reputation, how do we handle it publicly? He hasn‘t made those -

BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS HOST: Well, general, could I just interrupt you.

CLARK: Sure.

SCHIEFFER: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean -

CLARK: Well, I don‘t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS: All right. That‘s the one that ended up being the real zinger, general.

And as a result, a lot of response here: Admiral Leighton Smith has said, “General Clark is way off base on this one.” Lieutenant Commander Carl Smith says, “It reflects, quote, ‘extremely bad judgment‘.” Senator Warner saying he was shocked. Former Reagan National Security adviser, Robert McFarland saying, “It maybe part of a larger gamut.” Bob Dole said you should have stayed in bed on Sunday.

What‘s your response?

CLARK: Well, first all, Dan, thanks for having me on and I don‘t want to do anything to take away from this very important week when Barack Obama, the man I support to be president, is talking about patriotism and service. But I do appreciate the chance to be on.

Now, I wasn‘t representing the Obama campaign in anything I said yesterday about John McCain. Those are comments I said for some weeks now, they‘ve been repeated many times, I think, once, previously, on your show, perhaps. But I have said them on many occasions and I think it‘s an important point that we understand that this is an issue about the qualifications to be president.

National security is going to be a very important element of this campaign and people are going to be asking who can best protect America. But I want to assure you, I would never, never diss someone‘s service.

When people chose to serve in uniform, I honor it.

And, Dan, I came home from Vietnam on a stretcher. I was shot, I took a burst of AK, I got four rounds. I was in three different hospitals and finally got home and eventually recovered and went on to serve. So, I think I know a little bit about what it‘s like to honor men and women who serve in uniform and I do and I never would dismiss somebody.

So, I think, you know, there‘s a lot of tempest here, but I think we need to get on with the major issues of the campaign and I think we need to listen to Barack Obama as he defines patriotism and talks about the big issues facing this country.

ABRAMS: You mention that you said it before, we‘d actually gone back to see if you‘ve said it on our show before, I think that the part that has really gotten people—which I don‘t think you said before—was the part about riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down, effectively is not a qualification for president. I think that‘s the line that has been the most controversial. Are you sorry you said it?

CLARK: It‘s a great line. I didn‘t make it up. It was given to me by the interviewer. And I don‘t think it‘s a great line in terms of conveying. You know, it‘s too bad that I wish people hadn‘t misinterpreted that and lost sight of the important point. But, I think, you know, we need to get on to the important point here about what are the qualifications to be president.

Serving the armed forces is a great thing. It‘s a great gift to the country and it shows commitment. And particularly if you‘re in combat it can show courage. And John McCain showed all of that.

On the other hand, it depends on what your position was in the armed forces and what you did there as to how relevant that service is to the strategic decision-making that is the essence of protecting the United States as president. And that was the point I was making.

ABRAMS: Does it show anything, though, about John McCain‘s character that he had the opportunity to leave and he didn‘t, that he gave himself for his country and refused to go home when he had an opportunity?

CLARK: Well, I honor John McCain‘s characters and I said in the show, he has been one of my heroes for a long time. I like John McCain. He‘s been over to my house and everything. This is about qualifications to be president. That‘s what this is about.

And, by the way, it‘s also a little bit about the nature of American politics today that a comment like this could be taken out of context the way it was and create such a hullabaloo. I think we ought to get back to the campaign.

But I want to make clear where I stand on honoring men and women and I don‘t care what their politics are, honoring men and women who serve our country. And I do.

ABRAMS: Let me read you from Bill Burton, the Obama campaign spokesperson, “As he said many times before, Senator Obama honors and respects Senator McCain‘s service, and of course, he rejects yesterday‘s statement by General Clark.”

CLARK: Well, I agree with Senator Obama. I honor and respect John McCain‘s service as well and I think language of this type is—and this kind of discussion really shouldn‘t be part of the campaign.

ABRAMS: All right. So, do you reject the statements of General Clark?

CLARK: I reject the idea that you take something like this and swift boat it all out of proportion which is exactly what happened. In fact, Dan, just as a side light, you might know that one of the people who organized the conference call for McCain with the reporters is one of the people who was very active in the swift boating campaign against John Kerry.

So, what you got here is a political gambit. It‘s the tactic by the McCain campaign. And It obscures the real issues of this election, which is—which candidate is better qualified, which candidate has the judgment to be president of the United States.

ABRAMS: Look, I think that‘s a fair point that in terms of the big issues in this campaign, this is not going to be one of them, but when you have the campaign spokesperson for the Obama camp, coming out and rejecting your statements, that says something, doesn‘t it?

CLARK: Well, I think it says, first of all, I wasn‘t representing any part of the Obama campaign in that discussion with John McCain. I want to make that perfectly clear. That‘s something I‘ve been saying for weeks before Obama clinched the nomination. I was still saying that or I was beginning to say that then.

I said this about John McCain‘s qualifications for a long time. I‘ve been in war; I commanded that strategic level, as well as having commanded at the tactical level. I paid the personal price in bloodshed and I know what it‘s like to order men and women into combat and to pray for innocent people that they won‘t be hurt.

And so, what I‘m suggesting is that there‘s a difference in the two levels of war and the levels of responsibility. And you can honor a person‘s service, but still ask, “OK, what‘s the, what‘s the real weight of that service in terms of qualifications for judgment that‘s required in the office of the commander in chief.

ABRAMS: Well, let me ask you that. Is there anything about John McCain‘s service that you think is relevant in his effort to become president of the United States?

CLARK: Absolutely. I think anybody who serves in uniform, who serves their country, especially in wartime who has gone through the kind of privations and hardships of John McCain, should be honored for his character and courage. And I certainly do.

ABRAMS: But you say honored for their character and courage, and, yet, when I‘m asking you specifically about, do you think that it‘s relevant in his effort to become president, yes or no? Do you think that is a qualification that gives John McCain an edge on that particular issue?

CLARK: I think people look for character and courage in their presidents, but I don‘t think you have to have been at war to show character and courage. I think you can find character and courage in other candidates. I think you can find them in Barack Obama‘s life, for example. So, I think that, you know, the voters have to make their own minds up on what constitutes the essential elements of character and courage.

But here, we‘re talking about how experience leads to judgment. And I think on that issue, that‘s what I think has to be clarified because where it leads to national security experience and we‘re talking about keeping America safe, the American people are going to have to make a judgment—which candidate has the judgment, the best judgment to keep America safe in a troubled world?

ABRAMS: So, I‘ve got to ask you, though, this follow-up question though. Do you stand by your comment that you don‘t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification for president, do you stand by that?

CLARK: I stand by the comment that when you talk about someone‘s war-time experience, you have to put that in the context of the level of their service, what that service consisted of, and how it matches up to the requirements of the job of the presidency of the United States.

ABRAMS: So, does that mean, again, that you don‘t think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification for president?

CLARK: I think it‘s an incredible testimony to John McCain‘s courage that he endured the privations and hardship he did. And I think that the American people have always been impressed by that, as I have been impressed by that.

But I‘m supporting Barack Obama. I think he has judgment, I think he has character, and I do think he has courage. I think he‘ll be a great commander in chief. Despite the fact that he didn‘t serve, I think he is a patriot in the truest sense of the word.

ABRAMS: I want to play you a piece of sound from John McCain talking about this issue and then I want to ask you to respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, ® PRESUMPTIVE PRES. NOMINEE: I know that many—that General Clark is not an isolated incident. I have no way of knowing how much involvement Senator Obama has in that issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS: Now, you‘ve said that the Obama camp did not send you out to make this comment. Did you have any conversations with the Obama camp before you made this statement?

CLARK: Absolutely not. As I said, that statement has been made for a long time about John McCain‘s war-time experience and its relevance to the office of the presidency. I‘ve been saying that for months now. So, there‘s no news in that, whatever. And it had no connections with the Obama campaign and, you know, and I certainly agree that we shouldn‘t be dissing someone‘s military service, and I haven‘t done that.

ABRAMS: Have you called the Obama campaign since this became quite a story to either apologize or clarify your statement?

CLARK: Well, I certainly talked to the Obama campaign.

ABRAMS: I mean since then to say, “Look, here‘s what I meant or I‘m sorry that I said it,” or what did you say to them?

CLARK: Well, I‘ve talked to the Obama campaign but I‘m here tonight to talk to you and the other people who are watching your show, Dan. And I want to make it very clear that I respect people who served in uniform, especially those who served in war-time and were wounded in action.

I was one of those people and I also served later. So, I think I understand the difference between courage and commitment. As an officer or sergeant or soldier at war, or a pilot and someone who‘s making strategic decisions such as the president of the United States will have to make.

And I hope the American people will see past the firestorm of the swift boating that‘s being attempted in this story and look at the issue—which candidate has the judgment to be the better president of the United States?

ABRAMS: Are you surprised at how big a deal this has become?

CLARK: Well, no, I‘m not surprised by politics today. I‘ve been in it for a while, but I think it‘s important, this is an important time to recognize that people‘s qualifications are important. And what I‘d like to do, Dan, is, make sure that the American people understand that I, as a retired officer, have tremendous respect for everyone who served and I think we ought to get on and let the candidates have their say on these issues.

ABRAMS: Well, look, General Clark, I‘m going to ask you to stand by, because, look—some people simply think what you said is true and that there should be no back-tracking at all. Others would say, as you heard all the comments that were made, that this is a statement that never should have been made, but there is, there are definitely two sides to this issue.

So, if you don‘t mind, if you could stand by for a minute, I want you to join our panel in a minute...

ABRAMS: We‘re back.

Before we get back to our panel, welcome back, Wesley Clark. I was going to ask one question before we thank you for sticking around. General Clark, of course, is usually an MSNBC analyst, tonight, a newsmaker here on the program.

General Clark, final question. I‘ve asked it to you a couple times, I‘m not sure, I know what the answer is. Are you sorry you made the comments you did?

CLARK: Well, Dan, I‘m not backing away from anything I said. I think there‘s a very important issue here, that this is an election that‘s going to be about change in America. But one of the critical aspects will be who can best protect America.

And so, the voters will look at the qualifications of the candidates, and I hope they‘ll look past the fact that one candidate has an outstanding record of service as a pilot and as a prisoner of war, and look, instead at the judgment of the two candidates. So, if all this brouhaha helps focus the issue past the fact that one served in the military and one didn‘t, and into the relevant qualities of judgment of the two respected candidates, then I‘ll be satisfied that it accomplished something.

If it was just a brouhaha and the press, and swift boating, in an effort to steal the headlines back for John McCain, then, shame on all of us for getting wrapped up in it.

ABRAMS: General Clark, as always, thanks very much for coming on.

Good to have you on, appreciate it.

CLARK: Thank you..."