OPEN DEBATE THREAD: Please post your comments!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on October 7, 2008 - 7:30pm.
Democratic politics
Hello Everyone:
I think that Obama is going into the debate tonight with a huge advantage because of the economic crisis:
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/16717
A bipartisan consensus agrees that Obama should win because of the bad economy!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on October 7, 2008 - 3:00pm.
John McCain in my opinion will definitely need to win tonight's debate by a very clear knockout to be competitive in the race and I do not see that happening. Obama drawing or even losing the debate on points but not by knockout will probably not be enough to help McCain right now with the economy being so bad, with Obama's strong momentum in the polls, and with so little time left before election day!
What do you think?
Mitch Dworkin
http://www.securingamerica.com/
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/16039
RESOURCES: Speeches, Articles, and Career Highlights to help define Gen. Clark!
Submitted by Mitch Dworkin on July 7, 2008 - 2:51pm.
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/10756
StopIranWar.com: "War is not the answer"
Submitted by Wes Clark on February 21, 2007 - 11:40am.
http://www.securingamerica.com/ccn/node/7191
Listen to Gen. Wes Clark fight for Dems on Sean Hannity's radio program: An excellent example for all of us to follow and what we all need to be doing to help fight back against extreme right wing Neocon smear propaganda!
I didn't realize McCain was left-handed. Two southpaws in the race. I've always wondered why in Latin "left" was "sinister."
(Just kidding.)
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
for McCain -- Meg Whitman, Warren Buffett (not Tom Brokaw - that's a joke)
Obama -- also Warren Buffett.
Wonder if he wants the job. I wouldn't take it - Fer sure.
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
...to the African-American Oliver Clark. I'm not sure what he said. He will need to be crisper in his answers.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
unpleasant truths -- and not about each other!
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
Of health care, energy, and entitle reform, which will be your priorities?
McCain said he could work all three simultaneously.
If I were a Republican, I would say that we have to work on entitlement reform IN ORDER to work on the other two problems.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
Well, there was a sharp, quick, intake of breath as I wrote it.
But as Wes says, we have to listen to our enemies.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
in my opinion because he knows that he cannot go too far in criticizing Obama without turning a lot of people off!
On CNN, the numbers usually go down on the chart of open minded voters when McCain criticizes Obama!
If things continue the way they are going right now, then the debate will probably be called a draw where each of them made their points which I think will be a political win for Obama!
...when Obama criticizes McCain? Same response? (I'm on MSNBC.)
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
McCain on healthcare, the lines for both uncommitted men and women were up but the line of the women was a bit higher up than the line of the men.
...I guess the ole' "hair of the dog" won't work.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
No punches landed. It's been rope-a-dope all the way. And the style points are about equal.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
I can't focuse because it's like tape-recorded. "My friends, look, and" etc etc.
Why don't we put both in and see if they can make any changes...
...are echoing their stump speeches. If they didn't, they'd be flip-floppers.
They're both talking about reform and change without specifying how, though. Pure rhetoric.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
McCain is clever when he has the final word he throws out exaggerations, or outright lies, and the robot moderator won't allow a response.
Barry
Are you safer today than you were seven years ago?©
My friends, Obama had breakfast with a terrorist this morning.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
My Friend, the Pet Goat.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
The big stick has come
to bomb bomb Iran
and and
the eyes have seen
three eyeballs, KGB.
My friend
the debate is near
but we still have hope
hope for a better beginning.
Some people just go hoping to see a wreck. I mean, honestly, not to insult people who get into the sport, but if there's no wreck, don't you just sit there watching people drive around in circles for 500 miles? Isn't that a lot like this?
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
...list the 94 Obama votes raising taxes. I don't think I've heard Obama refute that charge, and Pailin never fails to say it.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
resolutions and procedural votes. I discount both of them on the "vote count" statements.
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
Apparently, (in the House--don't know about the Senate), there's something called a "vote to recommit" that gets called on every single freakin' bill before the real vote gets taken. (Let's see if I remember this right...) It's like there are a bunch of Lou Dobbs's in the House, every bill that comes up for a vote the Dobbsesque person moves to send it back to committee to add on an amendment that whatever the vote is doing can't be applied to illegal aliens. It's always nonsensical because whatever they're voting on can virtually never apply to illegal aliens anyway. BUT, if they vote to "recommit" then it goes back to committee and basically starts all over again; if they don't then some idiot will count it as a vote for illegal immigration. Apparently, it's some great big issue in the House to figure out who can't get away with the vote-count against them in their district and those people vote to recommit and the critters in the safer districts vote it down. Funny, I thought you had to be 25 to be in Congress. How come they all act like 8 year olds? (My apologizes to the 8 year olds in the world...)
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
I'm not "your friend" you bleeding moron!
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
His long, slow, drawn-out "ands" have driven me up the wall for 20 months and have written about them before.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
"Where's McCain's flag pin?"Barry
Are you safer today than you were seven years ago?©
I wonder if any pundits in this country will mention it.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
You may step on some sensitive toes, here. 
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
Of course to clean it up a bit, we could just say that he's worried he's going to sit on his flag pin. My friends, where DID I leave that thing?
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
There's nothing like "preparation."
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
Their "Carter," when asked about a solution for inflation, pulled out a tube of Preperation I to shrink the growing interest rates.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
I never watched SNL much after the first couple of years. Their original "Point-Counterpoint" parodies were priceless, though.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
You had to say that, eh, Shortie?
"Point-Counterpoint" was a regular feature of "60 Minutes" in those days, early- to mid-70s. On the show Shana Alexander and John J. Kilpatrick argued back and forth. Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtain played them on SNL. The parody is the source of the famous "Jane, you ignorant slut."
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
I wasn't that young. I just don't remember who played Carter. Being young was just the most convenient excuse I could come up with for not remembering.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
Family members watching it, I'm in the room. Ugh.
Proud to be an American.
And my family is getting me through this. Right here.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
I can picture you sitting there thinking, "Why didn't I put my earbuds in and turn my ipod on when no one was looking?"
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
But I just had a flashback to Bob Benedict on the cellphone: You are 3 miles from your destination. Take local roads.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
I'll never forget it. And let the record show that I only backed into one mailbox in four years of canvassing.
Proud to be an American.
I forgot about the missing street. (For those of you unfamiliar with the story--it's not like Mapquest was wrong, there had been a street there. But it was gone. It was dirt. OMG.)
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
Let's stop and ask directions.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
They will as soon as the solar lobby is strong enough to hand out free panels to members of Congress.
Barry
Are you safer today than you were seven years ago?©
"It would be nice for you to acknowledge your allies who are fighting and dying on the front line in Afghanistan, particularly in the south."
Neither of these guys is in office yet and already they're offending other countries!
Barry
Are you safer today than you were seven years ago?©
It was the end of the coalition of the willing.
We learn. We change. That's progress. If we don't do that, well, we're GWB.
The comment was from the UK and the UK has buried a lot of their troops from Afghanistan this year. Not that you'd know it from the US media.
Barry
Are you safer today than you were seven years ago?©
Good question, Peggy from New Hampshire
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
It pretty much touches on Rummy's "unknown unknown" mind twister.
There are known knowns - there are things that we know that we know. There are known unknowns - that is to say, there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns ... things we do not know we don't know. And each year we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns." [Donald Rumsfeld]
I learned about the "UNK-UNKs" in a business management seminar.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
Anybody want to do the honors this time?
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
Maybe not. The BBC's reporter at the debate said there wasn't much said but the behavior of McCain and Obama was very different. McCain was pacing around, "nervously" in the BBC reporter's words, even while Obama was speaking. On the other hand Obama appeared very much in control, of himself at least, sitting down when McCain was speaking but calmly listening to McCain.
Barry
Are you safer today than you were seven years ago?©
Blog up now
<----
"It takes two to speak the truth - one to speak and one to hear." - Henry David Thoreau
made their points, did not make any serious mistakes or gaffes, but did not hurt their opponent in any major way.
On CNN, Republican strategists Bill Bennett and Alex Castellanos admitted that McCain did not perform strong enough to do what he needed to do to catch up to Obama!
David Gergen called the debate a modest win for Obama while other commentators had their own opinions.
If either candidate won, then the difference would be too small to tell looking at this from the standpoint of an undecided and Independent voter in my opinion!
I guess everyone can say it's a draw as long as McCain didn't reach for the red button on air. Wes said years ago he knows McCain and he is famous for throwing "temper fits" for no reason. I don't want or need a nutcase leading our country. Neither does Wes.
analysis as "looking at this from the standpoint of an undecided and Independent voter."
Of course I think that Obama won the debate as far as the issues are concerned but that is me talking as a partisan, not "looking at this from the standpoint of an undecided and Independent voter."
Thanks, everybody, for making what otherwise would have been a very slow 90 minutes move faster, with a few grins and bellylaughs along the way. You guys are tops.
Think I'll kick back for a couple of hours.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
"We're no better than our own sense of humility."
Here are my opinions of these people who scored the debate:
1) Paul Begala: He is a partisan Democratic strategist so his score is not a surprise.
2) Alex Castellanos: He is a partisan Republican strategist so I was very surprised to see his score in favor of Obama!
3) John King: He is a very credible journalist and pollster in my opinion.
4) Gloria Borger: She says some sharp and correct things now but she leaned toward Obama during the primary in my opinion. I listen to her but I think things over twice just to be sure when she makes a controversial judgment call.
5) David Gergen: He is a credible commentator in my opinion. I think over what he says if it is controversial and I usually agree with him or at least think that he has a good point to consider.
6) Jeffrey Toobin: He makes some interesting and correct comments but he is usually in the tank for Obama in my opinion so I always take what he says with a grain of salt. His scorecard does not surprise me very much!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/07/cnn-analysts-and-contributors-weigh-in-obama-won/
October 7, 2008
CNN analysts and contributors weigh in: Obama won
Posted: 11:00 PM ET
(CNN) — The final tally is in. During the debate, six CNN analysts and contributors scored in real time the performances by both presidential candidates.
The number next to the pluses suggests the candidate made a “good point” while the figures next to the minuses indicate “missed opportunities.” For example, in the end, Republican strategist Alex Castellanos gave the debate to Obama with 32 pluses and 4 negatives as opposed to McCain’s 28 pluses and 13 negatives.
The other five contributors and analysts included Democratic strategist Paul Begala, Sr. Political Analysts Gloria Borger and David Gergen, Chief National Correspondent John King, and Senior Analyst Jeff Toobin.
Filed under: Barack Obama • John McCain • Presidential Debate
David Gergen is still concerned about the race factor:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/07/acd.02.html
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Analysis of the Second Presidential Debate
Aired October 7, 2008 - 23:00 ET
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR AND DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: "I think he's (Obama) going to win, I think absent some unforeseen circumstances, you can call the dogs in, and wet the fire and leave the house, the hunt's over...
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: "Well, let me remind everybody first, this is a poll of people who actually watched the debate and Obama did win the debate in this poll, 54 to 30 percent. But let's talk about issues, I mean I go through these in order and the first issue is Iraq; on the question of who would better handle Iraq Obama 51 percent to McCain's 47 percent. So fairly close on that one.
The question of who would better handle terrorism, McCain win this one 51 percent to 46 percent.
Here's where it gets tricky. Who better to handle the economy? We were talking a double digit margin here. Obama 59 percent, McCain 37 percent.
And who would better handle the financial crisis, Obama 57 percent, McCain 36 percent. And that tells you pretty much everything right now. It's about the economy and those are huge numbers.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: If those numbers hold, game over, period.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN CONTRIBUTOR AND DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The election is over?
KING: If those numbers hold that Barack Obama has a nearly 20 points did I have the math right? Math is not my strong suit.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: 59 percent to 39 percent. That's 20 points.
KING: If you go into Election Day, look, this is people are losing their homes, losing their jobs, losing their 401(k)'s, this is all they care about right now. If you think they give a damn about William Ayers or that Keating 5 or any of this stuff, they don't.
And you try to them about it when you travel, they don't. They care about their jobs, their mortgages, their health care, and their way of life. Factories are closing in these towns that their grandfather worked in. And they are closing down without health care.
This stuff is petty and small for them, if Barack Obama is leading by 20 points on the economy, 20 days from now, game over.
BORGER: 50 percent of the voters now say that the economy is the number one issue. When Bill Clinton won in 1992, when your guy won in 1992, 43 percent of the voters said the economy was the top issue. So now it's six --
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR AC360: We've got a lot more ahead to talk about the economy and foreign policy as well. Also these focus groups and more poll numbers from Campbell Brown. We'll get John King over the magic map but right now let's get back to Wolf.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, "THE SITUATION ROOM": If Senator McCain needed a decisive win to try to turn this thing around at least based on these poll numbers that are coming in. On the most important issue affecting voters Anderson, right now the economy, doesn't seem to have done that...
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR AC360: But if you look at the CNN poll which Campbell Brown just told us about the short time ago, on the economy, Obama 59 percent and McCain 36 percent. David Gergen, do you agree with John King and James Carville that if those numbers continue it's basically game over?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it's too early to declare victory Anderson, because Barack Obama is black. And until we play out the issue of race in this country, I don't think we'll know and maybe unless -- late in the campaign.
COOPER: Do you think that despite the lead in the polls, people might change their minds once they're actually in the voting booth?
GERGEN: I'm not sure the polls are totally believable, I think there's -- there maybe built in. Over the years there's a study now that's come out of Stanford University and Associate Press along with Yahoo, saying that is -- that his blackness may cost him as much as six points I think he's in a commanding position coming out of this second debate. Having won two, having done as well as he has, I think he's established in the public's mind now that he is certainly as qualified to be president as John McCain.
And that's a -- and he's come a long way in this and I think it's much more sure-footed, he's very presidential tonight. But we don't know what the race factor in America now. I think until this plays; it could close on this before it's over..."
give the other side legitimate ammunition to use. This shows that Chris Matthews is just as biased in one direction at MSNBC as people like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity are biased in the other direction at FOX News in my very strong opinion:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2008/10/08/chris-matthews-mccain-has-menacing-smile-obamas-debonair
Chris Matthews: McCain Has 'Menacing Smile,' Obama's 'Debonair'
By Warner Todd Huston (Bio | Archive)
October 8, 2008 - 01:11 ET
In the post debate "analysis" tonight after the second presidential debate, Chris Matthews of MSNBC proved once again that he is in such rapture about Barack Obama that it cannot be believed. Tonight, Matthews cast McCain in the role of Snidely Whiplash or some such thing thing because of his "menacing smile." Yet, according to the sycophantic Matthews, Obama's is "debonair."
Mary Katharine Ham reports what Matthews said tonight:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/10/chris_matthews_postdebate_droo.asp
Barack Obama is gifted in birth by a wonderful smile...
John McCain, when he smiles, has a somewhat menacing quality. It may not be purposeful, but when he smiles, you wonder what he's really thinking.
Barack Obama, for whatever reason, comes off as debonaire, even under attack.
What does Matthews mean "it may not be purposeful"? Is Matthews leaving open the possibility that McCain is secretly wringing his hands in glee like Doctor Evil over an evil plan about to come together if only we Americans are foolish enough to vote for him?
Seriously, what is with this obsequiousness that Chris Matthews displays for Barack Obama? Worse, how is it that he thinks he should be taken seriously with this sort of groveling, boot-licking?
Far from McCain being Doctor Evil or Snidely Whiplash, I'd suggest that Matthews is turning into Renfield to Obama's Dracula!
And now, let's enjoy a nice film to chronicle Matthews' emotionally overwrought love for Barack Obama.
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=e4kU2GaGqG
Chris Matthews: Building the Thrill (4:07)
Posted: October 03, 2008
Posted By: Seton Motley
Views: 6,084 | Network: MSNBCA video demonstration of why MSNBC's Chris Matthews will NOT be moderating NBC's October 7th Presidential debate. Any perceived likeness of appearance between Matthews and Wile E. Coyote is purely intentional.
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=e4kU2GaGqG
Related Topics
2008 Presidential
Campaigns & Elections
Media Bias Debate
Barack Obama
Chris Matthews
MSNBC
Journalistic Issues
months ago.
You want "code" words and "dog whistles" you don't have to look any further than the Real Influence Peddlers in American Politics - the main stream media.
which is why I mostly watch CNN.
Most of MSNBC is very clearly in the tank for Obama while most of FOX News is very clearly in the tank for McCain so I already know what they are going to say before they even say it!
CNN is by no means perfect but of the three major cable networks, they are the most credible in my opinion. CNN has some very good people like John King and Michael Ware but they also have some pundits who are in the tank for Obama such as Jack Cafferty and Roland Martin.
or writing another letter to NBC/MSNBC.
"a star is born"
"this thrill I get going up my leg"
"I get emotional when he speaks-I mean he gets to me"
"when I was watching Barack, I said, there's the fire I've been waiting for"
"I've been criticized for saying he inspires me-to hell with my critics"
"what a night-I'm getting giggles-it's so exciting"
Oh yeah, and how can you forget this quote..
"This is the kind of speech FIRST graders should see and people in their last year of college before they go out into the world. This should be an American track-something you check in with from time to time, like reading The Great Gatsby and Huckleberry Finn"
Thanks, Mitch!
“The Obama campaign could have said they agreed with me. Go ask them why they didn’t stand up for me.” - Gen. Clark
Chris Matthews should be fired in my opinion because he is NOT a serious journalist as that video clearly shows:
http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=e4kU2GaGqG
Chris Matthews: Building the Thrill (4:07)
He should be an opinion writer instead of a being labeled as a so-called "newsperson" as far as I am concerned!
What he reports is not really "news" in my opinion when I already know what he is going to say before he even says it just like how I know what Sean Hannity is going to say on FOX News before he even says it!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0810/08/ltm.03.html
AMERICAN MORNING
Fed Cuts Interest Rate by Half Percentage Point; British Government to Rescue Largest Banks; Dissecting the Debate
Aired October 8, 2008 - 08:00 ET
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: "First of all, let's talk about the performance in last night's debate. Of course, John McCain has been challenging Barack Obama to a series of 10 town hall meetings. Obama never took the bait on that. Ed, how do you think Senator McCain did? This is supposed to be his familial territory.
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank goodness, Barack didn't take the challenge. We all would have been bored to death. I think your London commentator just summed it up -- the sun is not out but we're not drowning in rain yet. I don't think the senator was able -- Senator McCain was able to do what he needed to do last night, which was either instill the confidence that he had a road to economic survival here. He had to score a big night and I think it was probably a draw..."
http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/16721
Debate Post-Mortem
Submitted by PAforClark on October 7, 2008 - 9:39pm.
Will McCain attack?