December 21, 2005

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RUSH: We have with us Senator Larry Craig from Idaho, one of the four Republicans who voted with Democrats the other day to prevent the reauthorization of the Patriot Act, and we posted his name and the three others on our website. He wanted to call and explain his vote, so here he is. Senator, it's great to have you with us, and welcome to the program.

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, Rush, thank you, and thank you for allowing me on. It is a very important debate, and something that I think has -- certainly by Harry Reid and others -- been dramatically miscast as it relates to the intent of some of us who have constantly worked to assure that the Patriot Act did not tread on the rights, the constitutional rights, of law-abiding American citizens. You know, I've been here a little while, and I remember Janet Reno, and I remember Waco and Ruby Ridge, and I fear the day that we get a president, not this president, who has a very liberal attorney general and sees the opportunity, uh, to leap through the holes that are crafted in the Patriot Act, uh, that could tread on our civil liberties. I say that having once voted for the Patriot Act and -- and will vote for it again, and we're working very hard at this moment. We've been visiting with the White House the last few hours along with Democrats and Republicans to try to resolve this, because there is no question that a majority of the Senate, which includes some Democrats, do not want to see the Patriot Act expire. At the same time, we see this as a once-in-a-two-or-three-year opportunity or four to make sure that it never gets misused. That's permanent law we're talking about, not just something that we keel with on a day-to-day basis.

RUSH: I understand that. Let me focus on something you said at first here. You said that Senator Reid is mischaracterizing some of the loyal opposition on the Republican side of this, or I guess throughout the whole Senate. One of the things I think that bothers people, and I'm sure you've been getting e-mail and phone calls in your office from people who just know that you voted against it, don't understand it. The reason they're upset is because they see a Democratic Party trying to undermine this president and sabotage the ability to wage war against this enemy, and the people who elected Republicans in this country expect them to go to Washington and understand this war is taking place and not side with them on things that hurt the president. So that's the first thing. People see that. They don't understand it, and it makes them wonder: What's the point of electing Republicans?

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, you've made a very good point, and I don't deny that. The reality is that we are at war, and we're at war with a very formidable enemy -- and, you know, my votes historically along with a lot of others have demonstrated that. I know --

RUSH: Well, what are you primarily opposed to in the Patriot Act?

SENATOR CRAIG: I'm opposed very simply, Rush, for the right of our government secretly to break into a home and to take computer files and other files and never tell the homeowner. I'm talking about a US citizen. Now, I'm willing to blink, and a lot of us are willing to blink, and we said, "Okay, you can go ahead and do that." This is under the FISA law, the federal -- the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. "We'll let you do that without telling the homeowner." That's a major step.

RUSH: Wait a second --

SENATOR CRAIG: Now, wait a moment. Within seven days after you've done it, if you find that you found nothing, and it will not damage your investigation, then you need to tell them. And if you do find something, and it will damage your investigation, then you've got to do like you do in civil or criminal law, you've got to go before a judge and say, "We have reason to believe, and here are all the facts," and the judge says, "Go forth. Be silent. Continue to investigate." That is a simple, simple request, and it is clearly a protection of our civil liberties.

RUSH: Wait a minute. I'm confused. You're coupling the Patriot Act with the FISA controversy?

SENATOR CRAIG: You bet I am because it's a major provision within the Patriot Act.

RUSH: Well, but there's been no illegality within the president in regards to any of this. This is pure propaganda, senator.

SENATOR CRAIG: No, no, no. No, no. We're talking two separate things here. You're mixing up the current charges made against our president, which I disagree with, as it relates to sidestepping FISA within his powers as commander-in-chief in a time of war that Carter used, that Reagan used, that Clinton used, and that this president is using to do surveillance against incoming foreign phone calls to known operatives. That's a separate one. What we did in the Patriot Act with the FISA law, we said: "Yes, you don't have to direct it just as foreign nationals who are agents of foreign governments or spies; now you can direct it at US citizens," and that's been in law since we passed it --

RUSH: Well, has there been any instances of an innocent citizen being wrongly, as you described, treated?

SENATOR CRAIG: We don't know that. Much of it's under a legal gag order, and we don't know that. But that isn't the point, and you know that as well as I do, Rush. "When we've got the Bill of Rights, well, nobody's ever going to tread on our gun rights so we don't have to put them in law. Nobody is going to tread on the First Amendment, the right of free speech, so you never put it in law." Well, our Founding Fathers saw differently, and thank God they did. Here we see differently, and say, "No, no. You've got to make sure you double-check, and you get a third-party position -- position in this instance," even though, in Patriot, we're allowing them to break into a home, literally do that, without notifying the residents, for seven days. Well, the House wanted 150. They compromised at 30. I think when something is this dramatic a change in the character of the right of a private citizen, then we ought to make sure we have a double-check. That's one of the arguments. The other one's national security and sneak-and-peek and a lot of other provisions.

RUSH: Are you saying, though, this provision you just described where rogue agents can steal into somebody's house under cover of darkness like the Clintons did in the family of Elian Gonzales down in Florida? They can sneak in there and steal items out of a house? That's in the new version of the Patriot Act that was not in the old version?

SENATOR CRAIG: Oh, that is in the old version. My point is, it is --

RUSH: Well, did you vote for that once, though?

SENATOR CRAIG: What?

RUSH: Did you vote for that provision once?

SENATOR CRAIG: I did, and at the time I voted for it, I said, "This is a major step in the wrong direction but necessary for the moment, but I will constantly review it and attempt to change it when that day comes for reauthorization," because we have to be under constant vigil against the enemy, and that enemy now is terrorism, and some of us believe that government at some times can also be the enemy.

RUSH: Senator, I have been reading about this Patriot Act as any citizen who has the time and interest has been, and I haven't found -- this is difficult for me, because the things that I have encountered, the people that have read it, legal scholars have analyzed it for me, have said the Patriot Act does nothing to change any of the assumptions such as search warrants and so forth that already exist in our legal system for American citizens.

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, then separate the need of an investigator to get the permission of a court to enter a home or to collect records in a civil or a criminal test. That's required. You don't get a search warrant without passing through that test.

RUSH: Yeah, but what I'm saying is the things I'll reading, that doesn't change under the Patriot Act.

SENATOR CRAIG: It is the FISA court that grants the search warrant, and the search warrant is confidential. It's private. It's secured.

RUSH: Are you talking about the NSLs? Is this one of the things involved?

SENATOR CRAIG: NSLs is one of those, and the NSLs, there's an implicit -- explicit -- gag order, and in doing so, it says: "Well, okay, if you consult an attorney because you've received one of these letters, you have to tell the FBI." That's new in law. Since when do you have to tell the government that you're getting an attorney to protect you because you believe your rights have been violated, or you're being required to violate the rights of somebody else by the disclosure of records?

RUSH: But, now --

SENATOR CRAIG: The main thing is, Rush, those of us who support the Patriot Act -- and I do -- want all of these things to happen. But we want to make sure that there are the safeguards that cause the law enforcement not to be able not to do it, but to have to get the check to make sure there's a third-party looking, in this case a federal judge.

RUSH: Well, I thought that --

SENATOR CRAIG: We believe that is right and responsible.

RUSH: But I thought that's exactly what the reauthorization did. I thought it created a judicial review process that allows a judge to modify or set aside any flawed sections of 215 orders or the NSLs, but everything I've encountered in this says that it's adding other protections as well. People have told me that we've added 30 new civil rights protections and civil liberties protections in this reauthorization.

SENATOR CRAIG: You're right. We are.

RUSH: Well, then it boils down to there's one or two things in this that bother you. So what's the solution?

SENATOR CRAIG: There are approximately four things that bother us, and we've been very clear and up front about them. They're the basis of the SAFE Act Amendment that I offered over a year ago and gained the support to write it and get the US Senate to pass it. The US Senate has passed exactly what I'm asking for, and it passed unanimously, and the White House said it would take it. It was acceptable. It was good law -- and then, of course, the House saw it differently and we tried to work out our differences. Over 202 House members voted for the Senate version of the bill, but they were denied that by the House processes. So it has been very clear and very open all along. The bill we have --

RUSH: There have been no abuses in this Patriot Act. Even the New York Times says there was an audit, the ACLU's done an audit, Dianne Feinstein. They can't find any abuses of this. Are there examples of this that you know of, of these kinds of injustices you're concerned about that we can add to the list of fears that people have?

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, do we wait for an injustice before we put a First Amendment in place? Do we wait for an injustice before we put the Second Amendment in place? No! We said, "These are fundamental, basic rights of free citizens in the United States."

RUSH: I understand. But --

SENATOR CRAIG: And therein lies the very -- you know, Rush, I'm sorry, I'm not going to step back and say, "Well, if there's a violation, then I'm going to move to protect the liberties and the freedoms of this country."

RUSH: No, I...

SENATOR CRAIG: I don't operate that way.

RUSH: I'm not suggesting that you should. The thing is I can't get the political war out of my mind, and the assumption behind all this that bothers me as well, that the president of the United States or the government as presently constituted wants to do all this that; it's got this in mind, that that's why the advocates of the Patriot Act were for it. So what we have here is we have four Republicans opposing the Patriot Act. We've got Senator McCain pushing for adoption of terrorist rights, the Al-Qaeda Bill of Rights. Senators Specter and Snowe are leading charges against lawful wiretaps of Al-Qaeda agents. It seems like this is all part and parcel of an attempt here by the Democrats to totally tie our hands in waging war against a real enemy, and we're making the assumption here that the purpose of the Patriot Act is to go nail innocent Americans, and I've never believed that's what the purpose of it is.

SENATOR CRAIG: Oh, I don't disagree with you. That's why I staked this turf out nearly two years ago, long before John McCain and torture, long before the war and the president and our position on it began to be politicized by Democrats. We're talking about civil liberties here. We're not talking politics, in my opinion. Now, you're right --

RUSH: Well, they are, though.

SENATOR CRAIG: I happen to be allowed to be lumped into that argument. That's why I appreciate the time you're giving me today to say, "Wait a moment. I don't agree with John McCain on torture, and I agree with the president in his current position in the way he has handled information flow. He has done what other presidents have done, and I believe, based on what I know now, he has done it legally." Have there been violations to the Patriots Act? We don't believe so, but then a third of it is under a gag order, so we don't know. But, you know, guess what? You and I both know John Ashcroft, a friend of both of ours was the attorney general. I trusted John, and I trust him today. I trust Al Gonzales. Janet Reno, another day, another story, the same law? A different situation. That's what fundamental constitutional rights are all about. Instead of arbitrarily changing them along the way to fit the political wind of the day. Therein lies my frustration.

RUSH: I have to take a brief commercial break, senator. Can you hang on, because I have a couple more questions for you --

SENATOR CRAIG: Sure, I'd be happy to.

RUSH: -- about where we're headed now, given the impasse.

SENATOR CRAIG: You bet.

RUSH: Senator Larry Craig of Idaho with us.

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RUSH: We're happy to have with us Idaho senator Larry Craig explaining his vote and position on the reauthorization of the Patriot Act. Senator, you voted for the Patriot Act less the extra protections in the new bill three years ago. We've got 30 new protections because of, you said, the extraordinary times right after 9/11, and that you'd be reviewing it in the years ahead. And I guess, this is the question all of us have: What's changed in these three years? Are times less extraordinary now? Are the Democrats right, there is not this terrorist threat that Bush told us about, the president told us about? What's changed in these three years to make the threat less to make you more concerned about the provisions you once voted for?

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, Rush, it's a valid and appropriate question. Throughout the last three years as we've constantly reviewed the Patriot Act, in many instances I and others have said, "Did you need this provision?" ad the answer was, "Well, no. Well, we haven't used it. We haven't found it necessary to use, but it's important we have it in the law," and that has been said of three or four of the major provisions that we sought to adjust some. So in the end when they were not used, and I would concur, not abused, but they were protections that law-abiding citizens in our country had had in the past, that some illegal activities hid behind, there's no question about it. That's kind of the character of a free society. Sometimes you have to take a little flexibility to assure your freedoms in some instances. Well, then we said, "Okay, if they're not necessary, and we believe they have moved across the line and have weakened the overall protection of law-abiding citizens, let's put them back in place. We'll allow you to use them. We're not going to say you can't use them, but you've got to go the extra step to do so." What was clearer with 9/11 and the Patriots Act was that it was the firewalls between our intelligence community, our law enforcement community, and their inability to communicate --

RUSH: Are they going to be? Those firewalls are going to be rebuilt in one week.

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, they could be rebuilt. That's why we're working as we speak to you. I just came off the floor in a variety of meetings with Democrats and Republicans and the White House, because a substantial majority of us here do not want to see those firewalls go up. At the same time, now and then you have to take tough stands, and I've taken one -- and it's in the circumstance in which you related a few moments ago, other issues have now boiled to the top, brought primarily by partisan politics. That doesn't change my position on what I believe is right for civil liberties. So we're going to try to get there. We're going to try to get the Patriots Act reauthorized, maybe an extension of time so we can revisit three or four of these provisions that we think are right. Because, like I say, there will come a day when there will not be a George W in the White House, and tragically enough, and I hope never, it could be a Hillary Clinton -- and now who will be her attorney general, and what might he or she do to your liberties and mine? There's the question.

RUSH: Look it, I understand it. I appreciate you saying that, by the way. That will help a lot of people understand your position on this, because I have not heard you say that before. But as to this extension -- and I've got exactly one minute here; I'll let you have most of it. As to this extension, if the extension's good for three months, why not good for six months or nine months or 12 months or on and on?

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, I said three months. I'd take six months. Twelve months means another full year. I think that's too long. I think that's too long to suggest that business records -- and, oh, by the way, my position, whether you like it or not is supported by the US Chamber of Commerce because they're fearful of the misuse of some of these powers for business records and others, without the appropriate protection.

RUSH: But grand juries can subpoena those records now without a warrant, and all I think this is doing is extending the same power to terrorist investigators.

SENATOR CRAIG: Grand juries --

RUSH: I don't have time to say a proper good-bye. I must ask if you can stand by just three minutes. I don't want to be rude and cut you off, but I've got a hard break here. Can you hold on for three more minutes? I want to say a proper good-bye, and thank you.

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, I'll do that. Thank you.

RUSH: I'll let you wrap up anything else that you want to say that you felt you were short-changing on because of my rude interruptions.

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RUSH: I asked Senator Craig from Idaho to stick with us through the break because I didn't want to be rude and have to say, "Sir, time's up. We've gotta go." I wanted to say a proper good-bye and thank you for giving us this much time, because I know you're busy. At this time of year you're seldom in Washington and these are pressing issues that you're working on. Nobody doubts your principled stand on this. There are some that just... The political battle is such and it's so partisan that with Harry Reid saying we're happy, "We killed the Patriot Act," and then have four Republicans vote for him, some people just need to hear the explanation that you gave as to why.

SENATOR CRAIG: Well, Rush, I do thank you for that. As an Idahoan I lived through Ruby Ridge. I saw a family destroyed by misguided government and misguided information from government. So it's a memory that is seared in my mind. This is not about our president. This is about-long-standing constitutional rights and principles from which I stand -- and, you're right, it's partisan. It became that by Harry Reid's statement, and I'm certainly no apologist for Harry Reid. But I do appreciate the courtesies you've extended me. Americans are concerned, and they ought to be. The war we're waging is a real war: 3,000 thousand lost lives, plus now with all of our men and women in uniform. I'm chairman of the Veterans Committee. I go regularly out to Walter Reed to see on you young men and women who have lost limbs and a big chunk of their life defending our freedoms. So if they can defend them in Iraq, doggone it, I'm going to defend them here.

RUSH: Well, I appreciate your time, and I'm glad to speak to you about this, and all the best to you for the holiday season, and let us know if anything changes on this so that we'll be among the first to know.

SENATOR CRAIG: We'll let you be.

RUSH: Is something going to happen here to get this off the dime? I would hate for that wall to be re-erected in seven days, that you talked about.

SENATOR CRAIG: As would I, and I think you'll know by the end of the day. You've asked that. We'll allow you to be the first to know.

RUSH: All right, senator. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. That's Senator Larry Craig from Idaho who has been explaining his vote on the Patriot Act. It's interesting. He said, among many things, that he don't distrust this president with these powers, but he can't speak for future presidents, say if Hillary is president or Janet Reno is attorney general. They did all that without any kind of Patriot Act. That's my point to the caller we had from Idaho long ago. Whether we have a Patriot Act or not, that's who they are; they will do those kinds of things. For example, I don't want Hillary to be president, either. I don't, either. But let's talk about nuclear weapons. Do I want Hillary Clinton's finger on the nuclear button? No. Does that mean we get rid of our nuclear weapons, so that she won't have them at her disposal when she's president? No. So (interruption). Yeah, I know. I know Congress doesn't go away. Hillary will not have -- if she is election, she's not going to have -- a Democrat Congress to go along and rubber stamp everything that she wants to do, but, at any rate, we did put his name up there along with the other four, and he called and asked to explain himself, and so we make the EIB Network available in such circumstances because it's always an informative and educational thing.

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