OLD General Discussion Thread 10:54PM
Submitted by JustTalking on September 3, 2005 - 10:55pm.
Frank Rich's new column is up.
Falluja Floods the Superdome
Last paragraph
The answers to what went wrong in Washington and on the Gulf Coast will come later, and, if the history of 9/11 is any guide, all too slowly, after the administration and its apologists erect every possible barrier to keep us from learning the truth. But as Americans dig out from Katrina and slouch toward another anniversary of Al Qaeda's strike, we have to acknowledge the full extent and urgency of our crisis. The world is more perilous than ever, and for now, to paraphrase Mr. Rumsfeld, we have no choice but to fight the war with the president we have.
and this part is powerful...
As always, the president's first priority, the one that sped him from Crawford toward California, was saving himself: he had to combat the flood of record-low poll numbers that was as uncontrollable as the surging of Lake Pontchartrain. It was time, therefore, for another disingenuous pep talk, in which he would exploit the cataclysm that defined his first term, 9/11, even at the price of failing to recognize the emerging fiasco likely to engulf Term 2.
After dispatching Katrina with a few sentences of sanctimonious boilerplate ("our hearts and prayers are with our fellow citizens"), he turned to his more important task. The war in Iraq is World War II. George W. Bush is F.D.R. And anyone who refuses to stay his course is soft on terrorism and guilty of a pre-9/11 "mind-set of isolation and retreat." Yet even as Mr. Bush promised "victory" (a word used nine times in this speech on Tuesday), he was standing at the totemic scene of his failure. It was along this same San Diego coastline that he declared "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq on the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln more than two years ago. For this return engagement, The Washington Post reported, the president's stage managers made sure he was positioned so that another hulking aircraft carrier nearby would stay off-camera, lest anyone be reminded of that premature end of "major combat operations."
Am I the only one that worries that the Al Qaeda may be thinking...."what a perfect time to attack, while everybody's focused down south."
'Last week in New Orleans, by contrast, nobody took control. Authority was diffuse and action was ineffective. The rich escaped while the poor were abandoned. Leaders spun while looters rampaged. Partisans squabbled while the nation was ashamed.
The first rule of the social fabric - that in times of crisis you protect the vulnerable - was trampled. Leaving the poor in New Orleans was the moral equivalent of leaving the injured on the battlefield. No wonder confidence in civic institutions is plummeting. . .
Katrina means that the political culture, already sour and bloody-minded in many quarters, will shift. There will be a reaction. There will be more impatience for something new. There is going to be some sort of big bang as people respond to the cumulative blows of bad events and try to fundamentally change the way things are.
Reaganite conservatism was the response to the pessimism and feebleness of the 1970's. Maybe this time there will be a progressive resurgence. Maybe we are entering an age of hardheaded law and order. (Rudy Giuliani, an unlikely G.O.P. nominee a few months ago, could now win in a walk.) Maybe there will be call for McCainist patriotism and nonpartisan independence. All we can be sure of is that the political culture is about to undergo some big change.
We're not really at a tipping point as much as a bursting point. People are mad as hell, unwilling to take it anymore.'
One of americas top fascist apologist. David Brooks. I wonder what he is setting up now. the meme that all blame lies with the local authorities in NOLA? I mistrust ever word he has ever spoken. I even held his movie reviews in contempt.
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"Those who cavalierly reject the Theory of Evolution, as not adequately supported by facts, seem quite to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all."
--Herbert Spencer: Nineteenth-century English social scientist
Believe what you will. The rabid dogs may indeed turn on the fool chimpy and tear him to pieces themselves, that will not stop there drive towards fascism. Even the theocrats will be tossed aside when they are no longer needed to control their sheep. This is not the conservatives we are fighting. Some of them have not fully buried their brains, but the brainwashed nascar dads and rapture junkies have already been set in motion and no one can call them back.
Remember the French revolution was instigated and funded by the nobels and aristocrats up until a few months before they joined their enemies in the basket on the front of the guilliotien
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"Those who cavalierly reject the Theory of Evolution, as not adequately supported by facts, seem quite to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all."
--Herbert Spencer: Nineteenth-century English social scientist
The righties have quite a different "view" of responsibility in the Katrina disaster - honestly, if I didn't know these people were DEADLY serious, I'd swear it was a comedy routine. How an entire group of people can have EVERYTHING so completely bass ackwards - COMPLETELY - is just mind numbing - I can't think about it anymore - it makes my head hurt soooo bad...
Administration Good, MSM Bad
It's good that Chertoff, the administration's man, is out there front and center to counter the image of incompetence that the MSM is peddling. This, from an AP photo caption of the President in the Rose Garden:
In a rare live radio address, Bush is seeking to stem criticism that a slow federal response has contributed to needless misery.
Why tag that onto every photo of POTUS announcing he is sending more troops and aid? Someone prominent needs to point and say to them, "Your bias is showing!"
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Media Bias
We're trying to document some of that bias over at one of RedState's sister site, Rathergate.com.
In the aftermath of Katrina, they've taken off their gloves. It is as if in hindsight, they wish they had not gone so easy on President Bush after 9/11.
I think this is the start of an MSM meltdown, and it remains to be seen if they can or will stop it.
If anyone wants to post what features/options they'd like, I will start a list. At some point I'll post the list and we can decide collectively which options/features we'd like to prsent to the admin. That way they don't have to swim through a thread full of complaints, opinions, discussions and can see what we'd like changed/added.
Arky, I will add what you just posted as the first request. Thanks!
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest places if you look at it right.
--Hunter/Garcia
If so, My wish is for bold, italics and links to be back to the old way - I'm way too lame for this complicated stuff...
Oh, one more thing - it's a stupid request, really, but I'd like to be able to be cloaked when I only have time to lurk. If I'm involved in the conversation I'm fine with showing up in the "who's online" - but when I'm not involved and I'm just trying to quickly catch up on the news, it's weird.
Thanks bug. I'm just compiling a list for now. When I hear from everyone who has a request I'll post it, we can discuss it, come to an agreement on what we should ask for and then I'll blog what's left for Aaron or whomever.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest places if you look at it right.
--Hunter/Garcia
NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 3 -- Tens of thousands of people spent a fifth day awaiting evacuation from this ruined city, as Bush administration officials blamed state and local authorities for what leaders at all levels have called a failure of the country's emergency management. . .
Behind the scenes, a power struggle emerged, as federal officials tried to wrest authority from Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D). Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.
The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request. "Quite frankly, if they'd been able to pull off taking it away from the locals, they then could have blamed everything on the locals," said the source, who does not have the authority to speak publicly.
A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.
Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.
"The federal government stands ready to work with state and local officials to secure New Orleans and the state of Louisiana," White House spokesman Dan Bartlett said. "The president will not let any form of bureaucracy get in the way of protecting the citizens of Louisiana."'
Do you think they can still get away with it now though?
People are awakened and riled up now. That means they will be more diligent in sourcing and less gullible.
I hope...
MS,
Keep in mind, the majority of those riled up are BLACK. They will be treated just as they were when they complained about not being allowed to vote. They will be accused of being LIBERALS or Bush haters.
We ALL know how far their complaints went back then....unfortunately.
Well I was thinking of Geraldo Rivera, Shepherd Smith, Anderson Cooper-- and the millions who listen to them and have entrusted in them for years....
And yes, all the working and the working/poor classes are a natural enemy of bush now, and if they aren't-- they likely will be as their lives crumble out of management and their families can't eat.
called her sister to say she wants to stay in LA, now that her mother is tucked safely into her place in Atlanta. She has joined the relief effort and one of her jobs is cooking. So somewhere down there, people are being fed!
Heart to Heart, a relief group started here by a doctor that goes all over the world is collecting personal hygiene products this weekend and bottled water for a flight south this week. I'm going shopping tomorrow.
Looking at Kos is depressing me tonight. Renquist passing is going to make all out war in the Senate over the SCOTUS. RIP, Chief Justice, it's time for a new era on the court and not to the right as Bush wants!
enough eyes are open and many more opening. The faithful who think God sent jr. to the WH will never wake up but I don't think they are many. Send them back to the snake pit from whence they came.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest places if you look at it right.
--Hunter/Garcia
I found this old, dusty document rather fascinating. Here's a snippet:
--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
that one in school.
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"In too many areas we have spawned 'leadership' that does not lead, that panders to our whims rather than telling us the truth, that follows the crowd rather than challenging us, that weakens us rather than strengthening us." - Sen. Paul Simon
OMG
The spin machine works overtime.
Louisiana didn't reach out for assistance till Wednesday? Didn't someone earlier post the pleas for assistance that went unheeded?
Just like I said a few minutes ago. They pick their targets and assign the blame.
"Excuse me while I point my finger at you while telling everyone that this is NOT the time to point fingers."
The National Guard were called up and placed around the surrounding areas in danger of the UPCOMING hurricane. Chief Blum, head of ALL National Guard said this on Larry King Sept 3rd (tonight). They cannot blame the Governor for not asking for help - she MUST have, else why did the get deployed?
and there it is in technicolour, the modus operandi. Remeber that article I posted here awhile back about the Jacksonians and their impact on political leaders. Well, presidents don't do well if this group is not on their side and that is who got hit by katrina.
BEHIND THE CURTAIN....George Bush's photo-op tour of New Orleans yesterday has apparently driven Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieu over the edge. Today she blasted FEMA for its feeble response to Hurricane Katrina and Bush for his phony, stage managed promises of action:
Please read on... and pass it on!!!
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007042.php
'What Jon Chait said about Iraq last week is perhaps even truer about New Orleans. The hallmarks of the Bush/Rove governing philosophy — partisan discipline, industry giveaways, and relentless lying — work pretty well as long as you can disguise the results of your policies. When you can't, it suddenly becomes obvious even to your supporters that the emperor has no clothes. It's taken two years for a lot of people to realize that about Iraq. It's taken less than a week to realize it about New Orleans.'
UPDATE: Good God. Laura Rozen passes along the following report from a Dutch reader:
There was a striking dicrepancy between the CNN International report on the Bush visit to the New Orleans disaster zone, yesterday, and reports of the same event by German TV.
ZDF News reported that the president's visit was a completely staged event. Their crew witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of 'news people' had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time.
The people in the area were once again left to fend for themselves, said ZDF.
This goes beyond stage management. This is criminal.
if you scroll down and read steve white's comment, it is a perfect example of their strategy to fight this.
We know what he's up to!
Saturday, September 3, 2005; 9:32 PM
WASHINGTON -- Bill Frist took off his senator's coat on Saturday and flew for New Orleans as a medical volunteer. But what he found among the thousands needing treatment from Hurricane Katrina was a rescue effort in chaos: patients sleeping on luggage conveyors, teams of nurses who didn't know each other's names and a total communication breakdown.
"In the airport right now there is no communication between one unit and another," said Frist, R-Tenn., the Senate's majority leader and a surgeon.
U.S. Sen. Bill Frist of Tenn. volunteers at the makeshift hospital at the New Orleans airport where many of the victims of Hurricane Katrina were waiting for evacuation, Saturday, Sept. 3, 2005. (AP Photo/Steve Senne) (Steve Senne - AP)
"No coordination with how many people will be coming in the door 10 minutes later," he told The Associated Press. "That's sort of the most disappointing thing. It's probably the greatest failure."
Frist left Washington around 4:30 a.m. Saturday on his private plane. He spent most of the day helping to treat thousands of victims at Louis Armstrong International Airport and the New Orleans Convention Center.
He spoke by phone from a helicopter shuttling him between the two, taking a 45-minute tour above the flooded streets of downtown.
Frist also said the federal government had acted too slowly in dealing with the hurricane's aftermath.
"No coordination with how many people will be coming in the door 10 minutes later," he told The Associated Press. "That's sort of the most disappointing thing. It's probably the greatest failure."
Well, yeah.... they don't have a secretary at a front desk with an appointment book like you did in your medical practice Frist! WTH!
I would rather spend my life searching for the truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. -- John Victor Ramses
As usual says really goofy things. Of course there's lousy communication at the airport medical area. Look how long it took to evacuate people from those hospitals and they had no communication. Why didn't he fly some of those people the HCA hospitals with his private jet? That would have been more helpful, than talking about nurses who don't know each other's names, sheesh!
I suggest we need the censors Faq. Sometimnes a Nazi really is a Nazi and if we are not permitted to say so I would like to see it in writing. I have to put up with holier than thou Deaniacs here in Seattle and I will not do it in cyberspace. At least not as my original login and real name used on every other blog. :)
Now that I think of it, ... ahhhhhh I better leave that unsaid.
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"Those who cavalierly reject the Theory of Evolution, as not adequately supported by facts, seem quite to forget that their own theory is supported by no facts at all."
--Herbert Spencer: Nineteenth-century English social scientist
Sunday, September 4, 2005; A05
Guests to be interviewed today on major television talk shows:
FOX NEWS SUNDAY (WTTG), 9 a.m.: Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, Sen. David Vitter (R-La.),Rep. Bobby Jindal (R-La.), Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour (R) .
THIS WEEK (ABC, WJLA), 9 a.m.: Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.), author Rick Bragg and Chertoff .
FACE THE NATION (CBS, WUSA), 10:30 a.m.: Rep. William J. Jefferson (D-La.), Louisiana Lt. Gov. Mitchell J. Landrieu (D), Chertoff and Barbour .
MEET THE PRESS (NBC, WRC), 10:30 a.m.: Former New Orleans mayor Marc H. Morial , Scientific American editor Mark Fischetti , author Mike Tidwell and Chertoff .
LATE EDITION (CNN), 11 a.m.: Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt , Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.), Chertoff, Jefferson and Jindal .
"In too many areas we have spawned 'leadership' that does not lead, that panders to our whims rather than telling us the truth, that follows the crowd rather than challenging us, that weakens us rather than strengthening us." - Sen. Paul Simon
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest places if you look at it right.
--Hunter/Garcia
Relinquist sure 'went quick'. Wasn't just a month ago that he said he was NOT resigning?
Think maybe he was given a little shove??????
And that ^ coonbug is a perfect example of what I was talking about!
My husband said something similar...my response was-- What a sick world we've come to that you know there are likely thousands if not millions of people entertaining that same thought right now.
And they can't all be delusional.
Just the fact that we think these things-- true or not, privately or not-- we think them. What does it tell you about how far we've come in America?
The fact that people are contacting attorneys here to have a suicide password to distinguish in a final farewell note whether or not it was real or faked by someone who offed you! The fact that people are doing it....
Wow. Thanks W. What a legacy.
How sad we are so suspicious.
I would rather spend my life searching for the truth than live a single day within the comfort of a lie. -- John Victor Ramses
I'll admit the thought crossed my mind too. how on earth can we take some headlines away from the katrina botch up? How about if renquist falls of his perch. There's an idea.
I know we're all sick to have minds that operate this way -- but it's not like they've done nothing to deserve it.
You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003
Tomorrow, guys.
Will ALL Americans ever be able to trust another government again?
I pray they'll be such a time. I pray that we can at least RESPECT it again someday.
Good night folks.
g'nite blog.
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest places if you look at it right.
--Hunter/Garcia
Check out this thread at DKos on Brown's bio: http://tinyurl.com/9cwjz
"In too many areas we have spawned 'leadership' that does not lead, that panders to our whims rather than telling us the truth, that follows the crowd rather than challenging us, that weakens us rather than strengthening us." - Sen. Paul Simon
Where the hell is Dick Cheney? Not one word from him about this terrible tragedy -- NOT ONE WORD! What we have here is a FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP. Can we recall Bush/Cheney???
was hiding round the corner watching Bush as he made his Saturday speech in the Rose Garden this morning. Also, he was being watched by other members of staff - guess they were afraid he was going to screw up as usual.
Guess Pat Robertson got his wish. He's been praying for a Supreme Court justice to die so Bush will have another pick.
Bush was AWOL on 9/11. He flew around on AF1 all day long hiding like a scalded dog. He has seriously screwed up the war in Iraq, he failed miserably this past week to deal with the hurricane disaster. Would someone please explain to me why he has been referred to as a great leader? I don't get it! Guess I'm dumb!
Bush was AWOL for Katrina. "It took him two days to get off his mountain bike." Gov. Blanco better not let him try to get away with blaming her right at the moment she hired James Witt. Talk about retaliation. Talk about playing politics with people's lives, which is what this crowd always does and is Cindy Sheehan's beef. Gov. Blanco stepping up to the plate and hiring Witt showed leadership!!
Bush created the DHS with a $42 billion budget and all we got was a color code.
I have uploaded another video of Wes Clark in Iowa. This is his speech in Sioux City, Iowa.
http://www.yellowdogdem.com/ClarkSiouxCity.WMV (90 MB) 38 minutes
I also uploaded a clip of Wes talking to AP reporters and the political writer for the Des Moines Register, David Yepsen in Mason City.
http://www.yellowdogdem.com/ClarkAP.WMV (27 MB) 5 minutes
If you missed the earlier video of Wes Clark in Iowa you can find it at:
http://www.yellowdogdem.com/WesClarkInOkoboji.WMV (80 MB) 35 minutes
Landrieu on 60 minutes tomorrow??
alexm's fema post is back, go rate it up, it has been reposted
Gov Blanco wrote to Bush on Aug 28, requesting help for Disaster Emergency. Here is the post on Kos, and you can go to her letter directly.
Good Night All
and the folks from Crawford can tell what Bush and the rest of them were doing on Aug. 28th. They were all on vacation being good old boys, trying to smear her. I hope they all choke on a pretzel.
on Wednesday, August 28th 2005 listing her States needs; they never responded.
Remember,the Republicans and WH have a future mess this fall. Bush will be on overload.He has to work for once and will screw up!
.Cindy Sheann on the march in DC this september
.Greed and the cost of energy(Gas)and a economy slowdown.
.Irag Lies . What will happen when we reach 2000+ USA killed in this war of lies.We may hit this ugly number in the next few months.God let this not happen.
.10000+ dead from this Hurricane and 600,000+ homeless and no goverment plan.They had no plan for Irag!
.Tom DeLay in the bubble and so is the Speaker of the House.
.The outing of a Spy . Indictments Karl Rove............EXT by fall.
.FEMA will be a mess and the Demorcarts have a PLAN to fix this mess.(Witt and CLARK...............!!!!)
.The Press (With Starch) will make life at the White House miserable
.The Court Fights
.Howard Dean.Say things the will Piss off the Right Wing Talking heads so they get "Fired" off the air."GET Starch"
.Fight the Republicans with the Truth!!!!!and watch them scream.Make the Scream each day.That is how you win.
What happens if we get hit by another storm?????
Long Island For Clark
Haven from fury Mercy Flight Brings Evacuees to ET
Gore accompanies about 140 arrivals from New Orleans but declines to take credit
By ROBERT WILSON,
September 4,2005
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_4054083,00.htmlAbout 140 people - mostly elderly and infirm - arrived Saturday at McGhee Tyson Airport on a chartered mercy flight from hurricane-ravaged New Orleans, welcomed to East Tennessee by a bright sun and a host of medical professionals straining at the reins to help their fellow human beings without regard to whether they were on the clock.
The displaced hurricane victims came to Tennessee on a hastily arranged flight, accompanied by doctors and carrying whatever they had in boxes, bags or, in one case, an old suitcase tied up with rope.
Former Vice President Al Gore arranged the flight and was on board, but he declined to take credit for the airlift, fearing it would be "politicized."
The patients and evacuees arrived aboard an American Airlines MD-80 about 3:15 p.m. The unloading process took almost two hours, as some walked hesitantly down a staircase beneath the rear of the aircraft. Others were rolled down a ramp from the front of the plane to waiting wheelchairs. Personnel from Rural/Metro and the Tennessee Air National Guard volunteered their services, as did others, to get the patients and evacuees loaded onto buses or ambulances for the ride to area hospitals to be assessed medically before going to a Red Cross shelter.
On hand to help with the operation were Knox County Mayor Mike Ragsdale and his wife, Claudia, still decked out in orange from having attended the University of Tennessee football game against Alabama-Birmingham. The county's first couple assisted medical staff in shuttling patients from the ramp to buses.
One of the doctors on board the flight was Dr. Anderson Spickard of Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, who said he had a "personal and professional" relationship with Gore.
Spickard said Gore called him about 11 p.m. Friday to ask him to participate in the flight.
"The jet was chartered," he said. "It was a private effort."
Gore chartered the plane, but, Spickard said, "we'll decide who pays for it later."
The doctor said the patients on the plane traveled well and added that he was "pleased" with Knoxville and Knox County's response to the call for help.
The patients, he said, "didn't know what kindness" they would receive here.
Spickard said the plane would leave McGhee Tyson Saturday evening for Dallas, where he would spend the night before making another mercy flight, possibly to Chattanooga, Nashville or Chicago.
The plan had been to make two flights Saturday, Spickard said, but delays in getting to Knoxville meant that the plane could not get back to New Orleans before dark. And there are no landing lights at New Orleans International Airport.
Mayor Ragsdale said he was touched by some of the heart-wrenching stories the people told him as they disembarked from the plane.
One, he said, was a man of 80-plus years who described being on his roof for three days before being rescued. Another was in an attic that almost filled with water. A third was a man who got off the plane barefooted and with obvious skin trauma to his lower legs, who told the mayor of having to stand in water for 2-3 days.
"Some folks are mentally exhausted," he said. And, the mayor said, he has been notified that the Knoxville area can expect as many as 1,500 more evacuees in coming days.
Ragsdale said a meeting was held Friday afternoon - before the mercy flight was announced - that included representatives of his staff and Knoxville Mayor Bill Haslam's, all area hospitals, Knoxville's Community Development Corporation, Child and Family Services, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and the Knox County Health Department to come up with a plan to mobilize in case of such an emergency.
"We didn't know this would happen," Ragsdale said. "It is fortunate we had the meeting."
He called Saturday "a very successful day."
Gore chose not to speak to the assembled media, but he was seen in a black T-shirt and jeans moving rapidly from one side of the plane to the other assisting with the off-loading operation.
Forty people aboard the plane were uninjured evacuees, mostly family members of the elderly patients. Two or three children and a dog also were on board.
...snip..........
Remember after 9/11 that the US Congress posed on the steps of the Capitol building and sang "God Bless America" to show their unity? Where are they now? Enjoying a brat at a Labor Day picnic? If each of them had sent just 2 busses to New Orleans, think of the difference that would have made.
Where is the leadership?
how you spell sycophant!