Let's Continue to Honor the Geneva Conventions on Torture


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Fred Seamon's picture

On September 28, the House approved legislation giving President Bush broad authority to decide techniques U.S. interrogators can use while interrogating terrorist detainees. At his discretion, U.S. interrogators can continue to use techniques which violate the Geneva Conventions and are considered to be torture by its signatories.

I am a retired army intelligence officer, trained as an interrogator, including methods used to avoid providing useful information under torture. I want to discuss two aspects of torture: why intelligence professionals and military lawyers oppose it and why widespread conventional wisdom that it is effective is incorrect.

Torture is uniformly opposed by our military leaders, military and civilian intelligence personnel and military lawyers (Judge Advocate Generals-JAGs) as well as the U.S. Supreme Court, which in June 2006, ruled that a provision of the Geneva Conventions concerning the humane treatment of prisoners applies to all aspects of the conflict with Al Qaeda.

In 2003, the senior JAGs of all our uniformed services issued memos which opposed the use of torture, as defined by the Bush administration, because it violates the Geneva Conventions, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and domestic criminal law.

In an August 2005 article, Karen J. Greenberg, Executive Director of the Center on Law and Security at the NYU School of Law, provided an additional reason. She observed that the JAG memos' criticism is not so much moral as strategic and that in 2003 they suggested that a policy of torture is sure to constitute a “fatal flaw in any war against jihadi terror.”

Greenburg further described the “fatal Flaw” in one of the 2003 memos, by USMC JAG, Brigadier General Kevin M. Sandkuhler, who wrote "The authorization of aggressive counter-resistance techniques by service members will adversely impact …Human Intelligence Exploitation and Surrender of Foreign Enemy Forces, and Cooperation and Support of Friendly Nations." She noted that put simply, Sandkuhler was saying that the systematic practice of torture threatened to impede the collection of useful information and so had the potential to deliver a harmful blow to the U.S. war against jihadi terrorism.

On September 6, 2006, Lieutenant General John Kimmons, the U.S. Army Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, echoed Sandkuhler’s sentiments. On the day the Pentagon issued a new interrogation manual which strictly limits how interrogators can question military prisoners, including those that the Bush administration calls "unlawful combatants”, Kimmons stated “I am absolutely convinced [that] no good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tell us that. Moreover, any piece of intelligence which is obtained under duress, through the use of abusive techniques, would be of questionable credibility, and additionally it would do more harm than good when it inevitably became known that abusive practices were used. And we can’t afford to go there.”

Torture proponents seem to accept conventional wisdom that it works and the Bush assertion that it has prevented terrorist attacks and saved thousands of lives. Regarding this assertion I would like some specifics from the man who, starting with the claim that Saddam had WMD, has provided us with some 27 justifications for invading Iraq.

Torture sounds effective - people think about how they would react to extreme pain or prolonged sleep deprivation. Ask yourself, "Wouldn’t I admit to ANYTHING if I was tortured?" I know my response is usually, "I’m afraid so!" Aside from seeming to be intuitively true, however, the idea that torture consistently produces reliable intelligence is considered doubtful by experts who understand the practice and its results.

Torture is an effective technique to make people say whatever you want them to. Unfortunately, it frequently elicits lies which satisfy the torturer, thereby ending the pain. The information that comes from torture, especially of individuals trained to withstand or counter it, such as terrorists, must be considered of questionable reliability, and there are great risks of diverting attention from accurate information through chasing down false leads from people who lie to escape the pain.

Having studied how Stalin and Hitler used torture against real and imagined enemies, I am convinced that legalized torture exacts a heavy toll on individuals who inflict it and societies that condone it. It is also likely that its use, even when initially limited to a select few “high value” prisoners, will soon become widespread. This, unfortunately seem to be the case in Afghanistan and Iraq as witnessed by events at Abu Ghraib and numerous reports of mistreatment of prisoners.

The United States has never found it necessary to legalize torture. In fact, it has honored Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions for more than half a century. Why is it now suddenly necessary to legalize torture?

Bluemoon's picture
Submitted by Bluemoon on September 28, 2006 - 8:29pm.

Thank you for this Fred- have you considered submitting this to any of your local newspapers- or even more national ones? It is an exceptional article- just as well written as it is important. And it deserves a wide readership. 

Unfortunately as we sadly witnessed today, we can add the Senate to the House debacle.


Fred Seamon's picture
Submitted by Fred Seamon on September 28, 2006 - 10:11pm.

Glad you liked it. I have submitted to my local paper, and hope they run it this Sunday on their editorial page.

Please feel free to use it as you see fit.

Fred


Stan4Clark's picture
Submitted by Stan4Clark on September 29, 2006 - 1:20am.

...that your piece gets published...widely. You have a credibility in the subject that few can match. And it's very well-written.

Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
BE THE CHANGE you wish to see in the world.
If not us, WHO? If not now, WHEN?


Submitted by msbehavinforclark on September 28, 2006 - 10:40pm.

I appreciate that you addressed this issue, especially today, and with your comment, "I am convinced that legalized torture exacts a heavy toll on individuals who inflict it and societies that condone it,"  I just say that I wholeheartedly agree.  I'm quite stunned with the decision by the Senate today.  I tried to imagine what these Senators were thinking while the deliberations were going on before the vote, and I'm not sure they were thinking about anything being said, only wanting to get it over with.  The few that stood from the Dem side, well, they tried to convince but everything they said fell on deaf ears.  It's a sad, sad state of affairs. 

Thank you so much.  As Bluemoon has already said, it is an exceptional article.

Submitted by Clarksapples on September 29, 2006 - 2:05am.

Does anyone know if there's some technical excuse Senators Feingold, Boxer et al have for not filibusering this debacle?
If there was a chance to win over the contingent of folks who deplore Bush and his Republican enablers and also have no love for the Democrats--to put it nicely--this was that chance.

...I guess real Democracy only exists in heaven.

Phoebe_in_Sydney's picture
Submitted by Phoebe_in_Sydney on September 29, 2006 - 6:40pm.

Greenburg further described the “fatal Flaw” in one of the 2003 memos, by USMC JAG, Brigadier General Kevin M. Sandkuhler, who wrote "The authorization of aggressive counter-resistance techniques by service members will adversely impact …Human Intelligence Exploitation and Surrender of Foreign Enemy Forces, and Cooperation and Support of Friendly Nations."

If this means what I think it means it introduces an angle I hadn't thought about. The possibility that those aligned to "the enemy" who might have valuable information are less like to give themselves up into US custody if they think they will be tortured.
This would impact in two ways:

It would increase the likelihood that enemy combatants would elect to fight to the death even in unwinnable situations.

It would decrease the possibility of disaffected enemy combatants deciding to surrender into American custody, bringing with them valuable information.

Am I drawing reasonable conclusions here?

The point about torture eliciting unreliable information and affecting the pysche of those who carry out the torture have always seemed the main arguments to me. But what you've referred to here seems to open up new arguments.

Thanks Fred. Oh, and I'm glad you're sending this as a letter to the editor.

You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003


Submitted by Barry_NJ on September 29, 2006 - 7:00pm.

I think that you're exactly right. In fact I'm certain that if we did a little research we would find that your conclusions have been shown to be correct in the past. Even in Viet Nam the US had the Chu Hoi program that promised defectors good treatment including job training, not torture.

The BBC Worldservice Assignment (audio file) program yesterday covered exactly this issue. In Indonesia they have "turned" militant Islamist leaders using persuasion and reasonable treatment rather than torture or any other sort of violence. 

Barry
Are you safer today than you were five years ago?©

Phoebe_in_Sydney's picture
Submitted by Phoebe_in_Sydney on September 29, 2006 - 8:42pm.

Will have a listen to the Assignment program.

I guess the 'new' anti-torture angles I was referring to were new to me ... obviously they've been considered and influenced decision making in the past.

Actually I wish I could find a great comment about torture that I read somewhere else online some time ago. It was from another former intelligence officer who said something like the average person gets all their knowledge of torture and how it works (or doesn't) from Hollywood. And the rule of thumb in Hollywood is that the bad guys crack under pressure when tortured and the good guys don't. So it seems commonsense to use it, if that's how you understand it and you know you're the good guys.

You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003


Submitted by rhj on September 29, 2006 - 7:09pm.

One of the main reasons we won the space race in the 60's was from all the knowledge we received from german scientists who came over to our side as the war was winding down. They knew how we would treat them vs the russians. High ranking officers, professors, even the common soldier knew find the americans or british because we would treat them better than anyone else.

Phoebe_in_Sydney's picture
Submitted by Phoebe_in_Sydney on September 29, 2006 - 8:47pm.

I had a vague recollection of there being examples from WWII of how the reputation for not being torturers helped the Americans. That's a good one.

Surely it's commonsense that in any war you've got some reluctant or ultimately disillusioned participants on both sides. So why not make it seem more attractive for anyone who's lost the desire to fight to give themselves up?

You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003


Fred Seamon's picture
Submitted by Fred Seamon on September 29, 2006 - 9:53pm.

Your conclusions are absolutely correct. Enemy soldiers are much more likely to surrender if they have reason to believe they will receive humane treatment. And once they surrender and are treated well, they are much more likely to be talkative, which is just what all us friendly intelligence officers like.

Enemy troops who believe they will be tortured or killed if taken captive have no reason to surrender and will likely fight to the death or until they are no longer able to fight.

Many military hisorians believe that WW II would have ended sooner had it not been for our policy of unconditional surrender which left our enemies no room for negotiation.


Phoebe_in_Sydney's picture
Submitted by Phoebe_in_Sydney on September 29, 2006 - 10:08pm.

I think this is an angle that's being missed in a lot of the discussion -- although it's clearly an angle people like you, with experience in the field, are familiar with.

Makes me fume even more about the stupidity of the legislation.

Of course, the other angle is that, given that anyone can be detained at the President's whim (as I understand it), this new, approved torture can be carried out on someone who's done absolutely nothing wrong.

You'd be taking them to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq. Wes Clark, CNN Aug 17 2003


Submitted by Clarksapples on September 30, 2006 - 12:46am.

‘The United States is committed to worldwide elimination of torture, and we are leading this fight by example. Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right. Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue regimes, whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the human spirit.’ ...from a speech he made in 2003; found it in Molly Ivins piece about this un-American legislation.

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