The Hosanna Obama Phenomenon
Submitted by ms in la on December 5, 2006 - 4:58am.
Democratic politics | Iraq | Media | News and Links | Wesley Clark
What follows is a complex scientific (realllly long!) study, peer-reviewed (by both my husband and my bird), academically backed up and supported by solid hunch and wild speculation, with double blind conclusive theorizing on the “Hosanna Obama Phenomena”-- which I have hereby coined as “HOP”.
This delving into the phenomenon of phenomena is not intended to either belittle or demean Barack Obama-- nor to extol or applaud him — (it could as easily have been entitled “Hosanna Madonna” or “Hosanna Coca-Cola”) but rather to explore the irresistible allure and quasi-religiosity of THE PACKAGE. I’m just using the Senator as Exhibit A.
Exhibit A: A Senator
Please do not throw any tomatoes at this blog, I just cleaned the place. This is NOT meant as a comparison of potential "candidates"- or a "mine's bigger and better than yours" contest. Just a closer look at that Thing we've all been so inundated with lately by the press, the blogs and everywhere else mouths move.
Sometimes you can in fact judge a book by its cover. But you still have to take the time to read the book. Sometimes the well-wrapped package does indeed hold contents of value. Or it may be just an attractive prop for the photo op....
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SAVE US
Let’s face it... We all need a little saving at some point. The cry of “Save us!” (Hosanna) has been with us for time immemorial... it is practically tattooed on the human soul. Throughout all ages, in all lands, long suffering humans have leaned toward the light-- or what is perceived to be light. And in the darkest of days that thirst for illumination swells even greater. We collapse to our knees seeking the ultimate tonic for our weary souls.
Definitions of HOSANNA:
* From Hebrew; its basic meaning is "to save." It functions as a plea to God our king to have mercy on us and save us from our lost condition. The Israelites were calling out for deliverance from their God, especially in times of great personal or national crisis.
* The New Testament, on the other hand, tells us that when Jesus enters Jerusalem in order to celebrate Passover, he is greeted by people waving palm branches and shouting, ‘Hosanna,’ which in English has come to mean a paean of praise... "Lord, save us," has become the glad praise to God, "Hosanna.,"
"Hosanna to the Son of David!
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
Hosanna in the Highest!"~ Mark
* Webster; A cry of praise or adoration (to God) used as a cry of acclamation & adoration
Largely because of this need, our leaders have been deified and adulated as ‘gods’ long before the advent of television and YouTube. And image has played its part in hero worship from Cleopatra to Napoleon to John F. Kennedy and beyond. Charisma, good looks, confidence, and that mysterious basketful of ancillary charms... all the ingredients needed to be nominated for hallowed, godlike status by an anxious and alarmed public. They will then anoint you and endow you with magical attributes and mythical powers. Embedded deep within that endowment is the unvoiced plea....
“Save us...”
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Please come join me in my Time Machine to see how the “Package” has factored into history!
^ This is my driver, Rex. He has Charisma and a custom fit suit!! His voice resounds and his jaw is chiseled... So, will you follow us now?
Good, I knew it would work. Oh, he’s never piloted a Time Machine before, but he’s so very cute, has read all about them, and his hands are strong! And he’s really smart too. So hop on board and hold on! Let’s hit Rome first. I just love togas...
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47- 44 BC - Cleopatra was a key factor in getting Caesar accepted by the Roman subjects in the eastern provinces. She embraced Caesar’s desire for absolute power and supported him. In the east, monarchs were often worshiped as gods and treated as being more than human. Cleopatra’s acceptance of Caesar and her subsequent bearing him a son made Caesar appear more divine. This helped him immensely in getting the change of government accepted in the east. Holland (2003) noted, “In the East, they already worshipped Caesar as a god…Just as Cleopatra was both a pharaoh to the Egyptians and a Macedonian Queen among the Greeks, so Caesar could be at once a living god in Asia and a dictator to the Romans.”
http://www.michaellorenzen.com/caesar.html
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13th Century - Genghis Khan had been the greatest conquerer of all time-his kingdom being more than two times larger than Alexander the Great’s. The Mongol nation believed that he had been one of the greatest men of all time and a man sent from heaven. Among the Mongols he was known as the Holy Warrior, and they continued to believe that one day Genghis Khan would rise again and lead his people to new victories.
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1841 - England; Thomas Carlyle describes an ideal leader in his book; “On Heros, Hero worship, and the Heroic in History”:
“He is called King, Konning, which means Can-ning, Able-man. Find in any country the Ablest Man that exists there; raise him to the supreme place, and loyally reverence him: you have a perfect government for that country; no ballot-box, parliamentary eloquence, constitution-building, or other machinery whatsoever can improve it a whit. It is in the perfect state; an ideal country. The Ablest Man; he means also the truest-hearted, justest, the Noblest Man: What he tells us to do must be precisely the wisest, fittest, that we could anywhere or anyhow learn...I say, find me the true Konning, King, or Able-man, and he has a divine right over me. That we knew in some tolerable measure how to find him, and that all men were ready to acknowledge his divine right when found: This is precisely the healing which a sick world is, everywhere in these ages, seeking after! The true King, as guide of the practical, has ever something of the Pontiff in him, — guide of the spiritual, from which all practice has its rise.”
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1928 - From Josef Goebbel’s Diary: October 16, 1928. “What does Christianity mean today? National Socialism is a religion. All we lack is a religious genius capable of uprooting outmoded religious practices and putting new ones in their place. We lack traditions and ritual. One day soon National Socialism will be the religion of all Germans. My Party is my church, and I believe I serve the Lord best if I do his will, and liberate my oppressed people from the fetters of slavery. That is my gospel.”
1935 - Seven years later: July 15, 1935. From Goebbel’s Diary; “Saturday. Lazed around, chatting with the Führer. We had lunch together. Sunshine, relaxation, a stroll with the Führer. It was touching to see ordinary people [react to him]. The women were so happy, they cried. I could scarcely hold back the tears...”
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Ooops! Mechanical breakdown. Rex is calling the repairs in. Please be patient. Enjoy a warm apfelstrudel und some Kaffee mit schlag while we wait....Whatever you do, don't talk to Goebbels....
+++++++++++++++++++PAUSE for Time Machine Repairs +++++++++++++++++++++++++
November 18, 1963 - Those who witnessed the president's Tampa, Florida visit remember how his confidence mesmerized the crowds. Though he spoke on the economic conditions of the country for 20 minutes instead of the scheduled five, no one really heard what he said – only how he said it. The audience was mesmerized. "When President Kennedy was elected, I was skeptical because I felt he was not sensitive to the problems of the South," Nancy Greene says. But when she saw him, she changed her mind. "He looked so young and was so handsome . . . a knight in shining armor," she recalls. ---"I mean, people's hearts used to pound when they would see him -- he had such charisma," says Bob Davidoff, who has photographed the last seven presidents.
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February, 2002 - Thomas Merton, business speaker and broadcaster, caught Clinton’s speech in Perth, Australia and wrote the following of it: “The Power of Presence”
There was a buzz about being in the same room as President Clinton. His body language, smile and confident hand shake exuded charisma. His considerable charm reminded me of that high school science experiment when you tip iron filings onto a white sheet of paper covering a strong magnet. People were attracted to Clinton like metal filings to a powerful magnetic field.
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November, 2006 -
Iowa Democratic Chair Rob Tully said: I have never seen a reaction, other than Bill Clinton, in terms of the excitement that people have to meet Barack Obama. Some people just wanted to touch him."
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December 2006- CCN
We’re back! Despite that scary breakdown in 1935 for awhile, Rex did all right. We got out just as Goebbels was blubbering over the Fuhrer’s uber powers of charisma.
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THE REAL THING
Back here in the Clark Community, we are blessed to have already found the phenomenon that is General Wes Clark, along with multitudes of others, and to have recognized him for who he is and what he offers as a leader, as a man... and as a “magnet” : D
Exhibit B: A General
The complete package; the one with the goods inside and out.
And we "Clarkies” have more than once been accused of messianic idolatry ourselves. Like Obamaphiles (Obamies?) -- we're occasionally sucked in by the great Hoover of Charisma, by the Package. We’re not immune to striking good looks, magnetism, electric charm, and the rest of the trimmings that Wes enjoys in such abundance. But it's after that effect wears off—after you've read the book, driven the car, lived in the house, worn the shoes... when the product itself emerges-- unadorned. That's the point where Clarkie enthusiasms truly begin to flourish.
It’s been my observation that as the years go by, Clark supporters not only remain infused in their original aura of admiration, respect and ‘enchantment’...but, moreover, they often experience a profound deepening of that connection, a strengthening of their esteem, and an unerring, steadfast fidelity that cannot be imposed— a naturally derived loyalty; no oaths required. I’ve been tracking this, and it really is remarkable.
It takes a tremendous dose of corresponding reality beneath the pretty wrappings to sustain that kind of allegiance in followers or fans. Not saying Obama doesn’t have that... he well might. I'm just saying that, as of yet, it remains a Rumsfeldian “unknowable-unknown”. Whereas with Wes, it’s a known. It goes way beyond perception. Wes has earned the title of ‘world class leader’ several times over. From Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, to Knighthood, to 4-Star General—his titles and honors, as impressive as they are, are but trinkets alongside his works and deeds. How many people do you know who can say they’ve saved 1.5 million people from ethnic cleansing? Or negotiated multinational Peace Accords? Or led a unified force to victory in a major war, commanding all forces to success without a single Allied casualty?
Ah, such an ‘Able-Man’ (see 19th century English author Thomas Carlyle above ^)
We know he can whip foreign policy with the best of the best, in a smattering of foreign languages at that. We know he can rivet the room to pin-drop acoustics by simply speaking truth to power on any number of issues. Yet we also know he cuts a striking profile in a Speedo to boot! ;P We can cite the greater part of his resume, attributes, medals, favorite ties, favorite snacks, and even wax extemporaneously on the warmth of his hands, the color of his eyes, or the inflection of his voice at that one passage near the end of his last speech. We can bask in his “light” as we choose-- and he helps us to find our way. He feeds us hopefulness long after we’ve stopped daring to hope any longer. When we’re panicky over the latest crisis this administration has plunged our country into, Wes Clark, the voice of reason, steps up to guide us and, yes-- to ‘save us’ in many ways.
We ... are lucky.
Others, less fortunate, are still stumbling around in the darkness looking for something, anything— a match, a candle, a lantern, a mirrored disco ball-- Anything that sparkles will do. Some found an Obama. Some found an Edwards. Some found a Warner and had to throw it back in the water. Some found a Bayh and had to look it up at Wikpedia to learn just what it was. One point of embarking on this long, convoluted super-scientific study (!) was to recognize what we might all have in common — not what our candidates have in common, but us- the followers- leaning towards the light. In times such as these, I think their hearts must carry the same hopes and fears as ours do. Lead us. Save us. Get us out of this mess! As ‘LJM’ reminds us We’re In This Together. And the job ahead is so immense in scope it's going to take all of us, hammering it out together, to get it done.
Two staple commodities -- Hope & Promise — have been conspicuously missing from the American pantry for so many years now, that we’ve become a nation starved for both. We settle for smaller portions. Some will settle for the mere illusion, the facsimile. And like Alice did in Wonderland, some will fall for the labels on the packages themselves—“Hope & Promise. Do Not Open Until 2009”. It’s against nature to lose hope.
Below is what two gifted authors, Alice Walker and Clarissa Pinkola Estes, each had to say about hope and promise in these times:
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We Are the Ones We Have Been Waiting For: Inner Light in a Time of Darkness
By Alice Walker
“It is the worst of times. It is the best of times. Try as I might I cannot find a more appropriate opening to this volume: it helps tremendously that these words have been spoken before and, thanks to Charles Dickens, written at the beginning of A Tale of Two Cities. Perhaps they have been spoken, written, thought, an endless number of times throughout human history. It is the worst of times because it feels as though the very earth is being stolen from us, by us; the land and air poisoned, the water polluted, the animals disappeared, humans degraded and misguided. War is everywhere.
It is the best of times because we have entered a period, if we can bring ourselves to pay attention, of great clarity as to cause and effect. A blessing when we consider how much suffering human beings have endured, in previous millennia, without a clue to its cause. Gods and Goddesses were no doubt created to fill this gap. Because we can now see into every crevice of the globe and because we are free to explore previously unexplored crevices in our own hearts and minds, it is inevitable that everything we have needed to comprehend in order to survive, everything that we have needed to understand in the most basic of ways, will be illuminated now. We have only to open our eyes, and awaken to our predicament. We see that we are, alas, a huge part of our problem. However: We live in a time of global enlightenment. This alone should make us shout for joy.”
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Inspiration
By Clarissa Pinkola Estes
My friends, do not lose heart. We were made for these times. I have heard from so many recently who are deeply and properly bewildered. They are concerned about the state of affairs in our world right now. Ours is a time of almost daily astonishment and often righteous rage over the latest degradations of what matters most to civilized, visionary people. You are right in your assessments. The lustre and hubris some have aspired to while endorsing acts so heinous against children, elders, everyday people, the poor, the unguarded, the helpless, is breathtaking. Yet, I urge you, ask you, gentle you, to please not spend your spirit dry by bewailing these difficult times. Especially do not lose hope. Most particularly because, the fact is that we were made for these times. Yes. For years, we have been learning, practicing, been in training for and just waiting to meet on this exact plain of engagement...
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The Dumb War
One of the more cited reasons for the rallying cries behind Senator Obama is his having spoken out against Iraq invasion before the war.
Like someone else we know.
One writer was so eager to find the light, they were literally blinded by the shiny object, and prevented from seeing that neither Obama nor Gore were at all ‘alone’ on the pre-invasion playing field warning against Iraq... in fact Obama’s speaking out against the Iraq war (October 26, 2002) was exactly one month to the day after Wes’s House Armed Services Committee testimony (September 26, 2002) in which he warned the Committee-- in eerie prescience-- of all that could and eventually would go wrong should we proceed as the President was planning.
See what “anonymous liberal” had to say about Obama’s 2002 speech:
From the Anonymous Liberal Blog:
October, 2006
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‘It's easy to forget, in light of how things turned out, just how courageous and lonely those words were at that time--less than a year after 9/11--particularly among Democratic politicians who wanted to be considered "serious" on matters of foreign policy. Al Gore was viciously derided by even liberal pundits for a similar speech he delivered around the same time. Had the war turned out the way everyone seemed to think it would, Obama's "dumb war" speech might well have nipped his promising political career in the bud. Clearly Obama does not always take the path of least resistance.’
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Speaking of courageous and lonely Democrats who “wanted to be considered ‘serious’ on matters of foreign policy” ... Check out General Clark’s own anti-war speech before the HASC that September 26, 2002. Then juxtapose alongside Obama’s Anti-War Rally speech from Ocotober 26, 2002. Both state we need to finish the fight against Al Qaeda first, and that attacking Iraq would only detract from that fight and create an enormous Al Qaeda recruiting opportunity on top of it; both state that Saddam, although a threat, could be contained with the help of the international community; both state that we first needed a “real coalition” composed of friends and allies to gain worldwide legitimacy for any efforts considered in Iraq.
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Links:
House Armed Services Committee hearings in Washington DC (9/26/2002):
Obama’s
‘Dumb War’ Speech at Anti-War Rally in Chicago (10/26/2002)
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Flash forward two years-- to 2004 (Thank you Rex!)
January 2004, New Hampshire, General Clark delivers a campaign speech:
Wes-- “But most importantly, the war on Iraq has come at a tremendous cost to the war on terror and stability in the region. It's drained our military and financial resources. It's drained our forces in other regions. It's drained morale. And it's taken our eye off the real enemy: Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network.. ”
And June 2004, ‘The New Republic’, an Op-Ed by Wes Clark
KEY TO SUCCESS: BRING IN THE WORLD
By Wesley K. Clark
The New Republic
June 7, 2004
< snip >
All the critics warn that, if we don't change direction, we are headed for failure.
They're right: Absent significant changes, we are headed for failure. But the problem is not just that our goal of an American-style democracy is too ambitious; it's also that we've lacked the resources to meet it. Constructing a stable, representative government in Iraq is possible, provided we alter our strategy and tactics.
http://securingamerica.com/articles/newrepublic/2004-06-07
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August 3, 2004, at COUNTERPUNCH, on Barack Obama:
Meet Barack Obama-- The Democrats' New Liberal Star
By ERIC RUDER
< snip >
The day before his speech, Obama told reporters, "On Iraq, on paper, there's not as much difference, I think, between the Bush administration and a Kerry administration as there would have been a year ago." He added, "There's not that much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage. The difference, in my mind, is who's in a position to execute.”
2005: From MSNBC.com on Obama
He has resisted taking a strong position on an exit strategy for Iraq, saying simply, "I'm not a military man."
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The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.~Marcus Aurelius
Rome--Statue of Marcus Aurelius on horse. Marcus Aurelius was the last great emperor of Rome. His son, Commodus, is generally associated with the beginning of the decline of the empire. It is historically unknown which of the two had the greater Charisma or ‘HOP’ score... But I hear from ‘inside sources’ that Marcus looked smashing in his toga.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Hosanna Heysanna Sanna Sanna Ho
Sanna Hey Sanna Ho Sanna
Hey J C, J C won't you smile at me?
Sanna Ho Sanna Hey Superstar
~ Jesus Christ Superstar
Thanks for the time, effort, and food for thought. I would like to add only one thing:
While the current emperor has no clothes, how much worse to discover the clothes contain no emperor. ;)
Run, Wes, Run! (Please?)
During '04 I was quite enamoured of Obama. I met him, and he was oh so very tall. He was very, um, gung-ho. He was enthusiastic, and seemed to say all the right things.
The bloom fell off that rose shortly after his election.
And most Chicagoans I talk to feel exactly the same way.
Nah. No real staying power there. The energy it would take to delude oneself in that direction for the next two years would be exhausting.
Of course, having said that, there is something going on there. And I think 'Hosanna" nails it right on the head. We need more Wes. Maybe he could do a coffee table book? Or how about a series of ties with strategy map graphics? Lord knows, he seems to never sleep anyway. I kid, I kid! Ahem.
We need more Wes and less fluffy stuff. Time for America to grow up and pay attention.
I have been using this field test (also highly scientific...) for years now with candidates. I swear -- when the home crowd loves you, the ones who really know you up close-- then you've got something. It's as simple as that. Otherwise... there's a problem in the network somewhere.
Remember how SOMW was looked upon at home? Look at msbehavin's comments about BR in NM... and so on.
And yet, well look to Lil Rock. From what I see, Wes is highly respected there by all but the usual suspects.
Look local for the real story. It's not a bad litmus test-
That was right after we had our fish.... or chicken... which was it? :P
Now I really need to get to work, I've been blogging away like I'm on vacation here!
unfortunately, Presidential politics is at least half illusion. Remember the old saw about an expert: "A guy with a tie and a briefcase from out of town."
The thing is, lots of people really seem to love to be deluded by those handsome, smooth-talking out of town snake-oil salesmen. They are positively addicted to false hopes on so many levels that it's easy for them to "jump on the bandwagon" of the next smooth Presidential candidate they encounter. And, once on board, cognitive dissonance makes it difficult for them to jump back off. In a way, this explains how so many people were so loyal to George W. Bush for so long. I know few of us see him as either handsome and smooth-talking, but believe me, compared to Gore and Kerry, many ordinary Americans would think (maybe not say) that he was.
Perhaps that's why negative ads seem to be so necessary. It takes a lot to burst those cognitive dissonance bubbles.
Perhaps thats also why media support matters so much. Without media exposure, how does anyone of substance expect to grow enough recognition to compete with the illusions of those who do have media exposure?
Anyway, thanks for this blog entry, ms. It's quite stimulating.
"Withdrawal without a plan is no better than invasion without a plan." (Dan Juma)
And I've known lots of people in Massachusetts who became disenchanted with him. Still, he could occasionally whip up hope....but, alas, also disenchantment again and hope again and...
I think maybe both men suffer from the effects of too much positive transference by their fans.
"Withdrawal without a plan is no better than invasion without a plan." (Dan Juma)
I may be an anomaly around here, but the charisma factor didn't even enter into it when I discovered the General.
Not having watched him on CCN (was boycotting the war), I was originally immune to his charms ;) I started reading about him in my local paper and finally saw a picture of him while perusing his web site. But it was what he stood for that hooked me. First of all he didn't sound like a politician. Instead he sounded like he was principled. That and the electibility factor was what drove me to find out more. I really didn't see any of the other candidates beating GWB.
When I think back......we didn't even know if he was a Democrat. :/ But I knew by then that even if he ran as a Republican, I would vote for him.
Run Wes Run!
Exactly! And that is part of the package. Our ear harkens to that non-rehearsed natural inflection. Something instinctual (oh thank God for that!) tells us this man is speaking from his heart. This isn't the usual BS... It's the same thing in listening to singers sing their songs. There is NO replacement for authenticity and the trained ear can spot it from any replica almost every time.
It CAN be approximated too though, by a skillful orator with extensive training -- but even then, it won't sell like the Real Thing. It's temporal. Eventually, Toto will come along and tug at the curtain, revealing the Great and Powerful Oz is .... not really all that.
So in fact, you were partially hooked by the charms... like it or not, speaking, voice, and the style of speaking forms 75% of our first impressions of people. Before we learn all their policies.
And we had the same response btw-- Hubby and I heard him first on CNN like so many, but who even thought back then - is he a D or an R??... it hadn't even occured to me either! Funny, huh? Different days...
I was interpreting "sound" literally!
But I am sticking with a larger interpretation of the HOP factor. Were you blind and deaf-- would you suddenly be immune to any person's ability to charm you, I wonder? At which point, with which senses do we cut off the vulnerability to being enchanted on that level? The written word- absent the inflection, voice and all the rest- can spin its own web too... You could go further and subscribe to the electromagnetic theory of each person's field of attraction on a molecular basis. The physical charge that's felt in passing in the orbit of someone in that just right vibrational field for you... I have seen this one enough times not to discount it, but it can be interpersonal too.
Some people are really resistant to admitting they might be swayed in any way by this stuff, because they're automatically perceived as "superficial" traits or we like to consider ourselves "above it"-- smarter than, better than, deeper than... I think though that -- real charm, more in the European sense of the term, is generally linked up at some deeper portal to real light, real transcendence elsewhere in the soul.... without getting overly lofty about it. And my point was-- very few humanoids are outside the realm of being affected by its reach, even if subconsciously.
Hi ms,
There's some research to suggest that we are attracted to potential mates as much by scent as anything else, and that it has to do with pheremonal signals of genetic compatibility that are beneath conscious evaluation.
We are all, after all, still animals.
Crissie
I am still working on this electromagnetic theory though!!
For what it's worth.
For now it's one of my pet explanations. For the most part we're reduced digitally now on our electronic pamphlets... images, words, etc. But live and in person - if we could look through an electronometer (<---a device I just made up!) and see how we each break down at that level-- like an oscilloscope shows us sound patterns-- if we could 'see' each other in that imaging...our individual energy profiles, well I just think that would be very confirming...
Like I say, just a pet theory. : )
Hi ms,
I don't know if you've seen the documentary What the [Bleep]!?: Down The Rabbit Hole. There's actually some good research into this, and it suggests that we may be connected in more ways than we realize. (Disclaimer: ignore the "channeler" in the film.)
If you've not seen it, I highly recommend it, especially the extended version. It's long (about six hours!) but it's worth the time investment.
Crissie
Sounds intriguing though. 6 HOURS???!!! Yikes!
Superconductor. That's another form of "HOP".
Will check it out. As soon as six hours open up... : )
Hi ms,
The way the DVD is formatted, you can watch it in thematic segments, so you're not stuck sitting through the six hours all at once.
Crissie
Stupendous unravelling of the “Hosanna Obama Phenomena” -- or HOP.
Personally, I liked the The Real Thing part the best. ;) And what wonderful visuals you added to the text of this message! Someday, I'm gonna have to learn how to do that.
Just put the image tag before and after the photo URL.
[ <---- that bracket and img and ] <---that bracket
before the photo URL (has to be online) as the opening tag.
Then at the end of the URL put the same thing with the closing slash... so it's bracket [, slashback /, and img, bracket ]
Hope that makes some sense because I can't write it out exactly as you type it or it gets interpreted as code in the post!!
And when you need/ want to resize the image, the opening tag gets written with the size you want. Like this: [ bracket img then the equal symbol = and the size, for example 300x200 and bracket again ] Closing bracket remains the same.
I would be happy at this hour of this day if The Real Thing was the first thing that I saw when I logged onto the General's Board. I'm getting a bit sick of looking at exhibit A...especially when I don' t have the option to take a black marker to one of those teeth.
It's been a long day.......*sigh*
watch and listen...
looking back at this blog and these comments from all of us ... it's all so ironic today....
Dipping into the archives always surprises.
You'll be REALLY surprised.
Try it.
"The citizen who sees his society's democratic clothes being worn out and does not cry out is not a patriot but a traitor." -- Mark Twain
Hiya ms,
WONDERFUL essay!!! Thank you!!!
(BTW, what did the bird say?)
Crissie
Hi ms,
It was a rhetorical question -- a toss-off at humor -- but thanks for the reply. And yes, that's high praise indeed. I usually get *splat* in the Inspector Clouseau tradition. ;)
Crissie
...that's still my ticket.
I work in a very right-wing environment in Texas and here is what I'm picking up from Repubs and Independents around here:
- Clark: Listened to, respected, not necessarily agree with him
- Obama: Listened to, respected, not necessarily agree with him
- Kerry: Totally ridiculed
- Hillary: Will actively work against to defeat
- Edwards: Joke
- Biden: Unknown
- Gore: Somewhat ridiculed
- Others: Unknown
Again, if the Democrats are interested in the White House in 2008, they need to get a team that will at least pull a fair number of votes from Republicans and Independents. Certainly not going to happen with Hillary. You can't get votes if your candidate isn't even listened to.
"The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject."
~Marcus Aurelius
Not true...these 10,000 might cast a vote and the only way for them to know anything about the candidate is if they actually hear what they are saying.
Now, it isn't going to make any difference in Texas, but it will make a huge difference in the close matchups. I think an apprenticeship of 8 years under Clark would prepare Obama to make an outstanding President in 2016.
but there's something that is nagging at me. Let's see, as VP there's that deciding vote in the senate thingy. And I just don't trust Obama. I can't put my finger on it, but I sense just a bit of self-rightousness that I find worrying.
...are almost self-rightous by definition. I only know one guy/gal mentioned in the Presidential mix who isn't.
Hiya DB,
Politicians are almost self-rightous by definition. I only know one guy/gal mentioned in the Presidential mix who isn't.
I agree, and yet he's the one guy of the bunch -- at least that I'm familiar with -- who seems to me to have the humility, love for mankind, and genuine one-to-one compassion that I think of as "faith-full."
I'm reminded of a homily I once heard. The priest painted a stark and troubling picture of a building on fire, with a child trapped in an upstairs room. A clergyman stood on the sidewalk below, praying loudly for God to come and have mercy, while a fireman went into the building and got her out. "Who was the man of God here?" the priest asked. "The man who gave the public prayer, or the man who risked his own life to go into the burning building?"
Obama gives a great public prayer, and there is value in that. But Wes has gone into the burning building, more than once.
Crissie
Hate to be a downer by continuing the analogy, but sometimes the heroes that go into those burning buildings are the ones that end up crushed by a pile of rubble, while the politicians are left to make pronouncements standing on the remains of that rubble...even when their dereliction of duty [either by not enforcing building/fire codes or in some cases by not pursuing terrorists know to be readying an attack against you] led to that collapse.
Like you said, Wes is a survivor and hopefully he'll find a way to get into these shark-infested waters and find a way to come out on top.
Hopefully, the Democratic party will not build their 2008 plans on flimsy candidates easily toppled
Hi DB,
Sybil (below) quotes a Sirota comment on Obama's (quite purposeful?) absence of substance.
Obama's past record in Illinois is of a man committed to helping the poor, but what has he done for them in Washington? Has he sponsored any bills that would, for example, take the country to task for the plight of Katrina victims, or boost the Head Start or WIC programs, or ensure that every American has access to quality health care?
He is (the MSM would have you believe) the only Dem candidate who has opposed the Iraq War from its inception, which is true only if you ignore facts like Wes' October 2002 HASC testimony. But what has he done since? Where are the Obama-sponsored bills to curb war profiteering and de-militarize U.S. domestic and foreign policy? Where are the Obama-sponsored bills to join in the International Criminal Court, to fully submit to jurisdiction in the World Court, to revitalize the United Nations and other non-military methods for dispute resolution?
For three years, Barack Obama has had more political currency than any other Democrat. How has he spent it? And if he hasn't -- on the theory that he's saving it for a Presidential bid -- what does that say about his leadership qualities? It's one thing to stand in the street and pray while a fireman runs into a burning building. It's another thing to go from one burning building to the next to the next, always standing on the street praying while someone else goes into the building ...
... and then want the credit for all of those rescues.
Obama, you've got two years to show Americans that you're something more than a path-of-least-resistance-and-most-publicity politician. We need leadership, not showmanship.
Crissie
I like the homily and how you compared it with Gen. Clark...
I can't say much about Obama because I really don't know much about him, but I find it weird how he just came out of no where and now he is so popular...
But I have been asking myself does anyone have that much power as a president or a leader as it used to be? How easy/hard is it going to be to deal with powerful people that don't agree with you, aren’t there many landmines in the White House? And if you don’t sacrifice ideals for the sake of money and power than most likely you will step on one of the landmines, but if you agree with the money and power and not what is better for the human kind than those landmines will be removed for you. I mean that is how I see it or have noticed about being the president/leader, and it looks like the president/leader has to act like a puppet if he/she is going to survive, but I could be wrong…
I meant landmines not land-minds lol. Anyway, it doesn't matter since it is about Obama vs Clark and it was a silly analysis.
Hi Dorma,
I kinda get the same feeling listening to Obama. On the one hand, I know he's trying to offer a door by which deeply religious people can come into the Democratic Party, and that's good. For too long, the GOP has painted itself as "the party of God," while promoting policies that are profoundly ungodly. But the general impression was that the Dems refused to consider godliness or moral virtue at all, so better the party that pretends to believe as you believe than the one that denounces you as backward-thinking, superstitious quacks. I think a lot of Obama's public sermonizing is with that intent.
Still, it makes me uneasy. I'm kind of a "by their fruits ye shall know them" girl when it comes to matters of public religiousity. I'm less interested in who can quote the most Bible verses and sound the most like a modern-day Sheen-King-Graham than I am about who has been, is, and commits to "tilling the Master's field." And to be fair, Obama has done some of that in his work for the poor and disadvantaged in Chicago. But lately it seems he's so focused on "talking the talk" that I wonder if he has time or still feels compelled to "walk the walk."
I guess it's too much to ask for both in a would-be President. Someone who were truly "tilling the Master's field" wouldn't have time to run for public office, as that "tilling" is very much a full-time job in itself.
And maybe that's not such a bad thing, for it allows us to preserve the separation of Church and State. The man who would commit himself fully to serving the State -- and the job of President demands no less -- simply can't have enough hours in a day to also fully serve the Church. Which is not to say that a candidate's deeply-held religious beliefs can't or shouldn't shape his political views, but simply that ... when we go into the voting booth ... we're electing a President and not a Pope. Bush was sold, in part, as Pastor-in-Chief. I'd rather our country didn't buy the same packaging again.
Crissie
Sirota :
snip> Obama’s deference to these boundaries was hammered home to me when our discussion touched on the late Senator Paul Wellstone. Obama said the progressive champion was “magnificent.” He also gently but dismissively labeled Wellstone as merely a “gadfly,” in a tone laced with contempt for the senator who, for instance, almost single-handedly prevented passage of the bankruptcy bill for years over the objections of both parties. This clarified Obama’s support for the Hamilton Project, an organization formed by Citigroup chair Robert Rubin and other Wall Street Democrats to fight back against growing populist outrage within the party. And I understood why Beltway publications and think tanks have heaped praise on Obama and want him to run for President. It’s because he has shown a rare ability to mix charisma and deference to the establishment.<snip
watch and listen...
Hi Sybil,
Particularly damning is Sirota's comment that Obama has avoided taking any kind of stance on any issue that might undermine his rock-star popularity. I haven't studied Obama's record in any depth -- though from Sirota says that would take perhaps three minutes -- but if this is true, it's clear to me that Obama is unfit to lead. I start to wonder if Obama is a case of "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt."
Crissie
im surrounded by the mother f-ers too and that's how they see the candidates. can the hillary crowd listen to those facts and not drag us down with a doomed nominee??????
That list of yours.
Really important too if it's so. I work with a mix of Right Left North South! Also a cultural, international mix as we tend to have out here. And I must say-- I've tested these waters quite a bit-- Wes does play the best and most consistently as favorable to the righter-leaning folks from our batch of D's. (Well I don't count Lieberman as a D) Especially to the real conservatives who've had NO leadership since the cowboy came to Dodge.
We are so lucky to have him here "in these times"...
And Marcus Aurelius probably wasn't familiar with Diebold when he made that statement.... or the electoral college. Cut him some slack... he was cute. : )
She beat McCain by 10 points among Independents in NH. And I am coming across more and more Republicans here in TX who say they will vote for her, ESPECIALLY women Republicans.
The "can't get enough votes in the general" meme is hogwash.
"As long as war is regarded as wicked, it will always have its fascination. When it is looked upon as vulgar, it will cease to be popular." - Oscar Wilde
Actually...I didn't notice the gift-wrap or the charisma until quite some time after I had become a devotee of the 'substance' that is Wes Clark. In other words, I read the book before I noticed the cover.
(thank you pardner, for 'noodging' me down that path some many years ago, before the 'presidency' was even a twinkle in John's and Josh's eyes...be at peace)
watch and listen...
gift to this community this post is!!
Read, rinse, repeat... :)
Draco Malfoy: Scared, Potter? Harry Potter: You wish.
As always, I love reading your stuff.
"Some of them put on their cowboy boots and put their feet up on the desk." -Wes Clark
and thank you for burning the midnight oil.
Don't know whether anyone has linked to this before:
The Phenomenon
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19651
A review of BHO - supposed to be a review of his book.
I had NOT seen that! A lot of similar thinking in that write up. I did not know his book title either, but I do like that title... "The Audacity of Hope". Good one.
I burn way too much midnight oil.
Soon I will need to launch a small invasion into some exotic foreign country who has large pools of "midnight oil" so that I can replenish the supply I have so depleted over these past 6 yrs... : )
and it's likely he'll be wrong again. He provides a great service, but his track record at predictions isn't perfect.
Credit where credit is due, We're in this together (WITT) coined by Jared Bernstein, who did say he'd be glad to do a guest blog here one day over in the comments on a DKos diary:) I'm thinking podcast with Wes!
But I did remember yours -- in any case, you're spreading his word!
And yes, he'd be a good Guest Blogger. We have to get back into that feature now that elections are over.
Fun and interesting to read…
And it reminds me how many Clarkies are talented and have the smarts ;-)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/us/politics/05obama.html?_r=1&ei=5094&en=cc9e6cd3021e83f4&hp=&ex=1165294800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin
December 5, 2006
Senator Barack Obama treaded onto Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s home turf last night to meet with prominent Democratic donors and feel out those who might prefer the sound of President Obama to President Clinton (as in Hillary, not Bill).
Amid intensifying presidential musings by Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Obama met with George Soros, the liberal billionaire philanthropist, and then some other donors last night at Mr. Soros’s offices.
One of the donors who met with Mr. Obama, and who spoke on condition of anonymity because he did not want to offend Mrs. Clinton, said that he and several others had supported Mrs. Clinton’s Senate campaigns but were not committed to her as a presidential candidate.
“I like Hillary a lot, but I’
Statistics - systematic method for getting the wrong conclusion with 95% confidence.
'Obama has avoided taking any kind of stance on any issue that might undermine his rock-star popularity.'
Good points, Cris (Crissie). If talent, charisma, and a stance against the war were the only qualifications required to be President or even Vice-President, then Natalie Maines would be even more qualified than Obama.
She (and her partners in the Dixie Chicks) did pay a price for her opposition to the invasion of Iraq. The Dixie Chicks concerts in Texas, their home base, have dwindled, or had to be cancelled, although I understand their CDs are still selling in the rest of the country. She ran into the burning building, so to speak.
Frankly, I don't think Obama should become Vice-President either, at least not in the next Administration. The VP position
requires someone who could step into the Presidency on a second's notice, if something, anything, happens to the President.
That means someone who already has foreign policy and national defense experience. There isn't time for grooming someone for eight years.
For that matter, Hillary Clinton appears to have done a better job in the Senate than Obama has. She has been on the Senate Armed Services committee, and has visited troops in the field, both as a Senator and as a First Lady before that.
No, I don't support Sen. Clinton as President. I just want to make the comparison with Obama, here.
The Insider-Driven Obama Campaign
Look at that chart above, a blogpulse chart of blog mentions of Barack Obama. That is the Obama campaign in a nutshell - low level chatter and huge spikes that come after TV appearances and leaks from insiders. While Obama has real grassroots support, his campaign is a conversation being driven from the top.
Statistics - systematic method for getting the wrong conclusion with 95% confidence.
There are blogs dedicated to female Fox news anchors panty shots (really, there is), the latest celebrity gossip, and blogs solely dedicated to knitting. I refuse to read Matt Stoller anymore so I don't know if this is specific to political blogs or not. That'd be a more fair graph.
As Homer Simpson would say, "You can use facts to prove anything even remotely true." The importance is relevance and context.
I wrote some months ago that you can't simply watch, listen to, or read Wes Clark. You have to experience him personally. You have to use all your senses and organs (brain, heart, stomach) to get the full impact of, as you say, MS, the whole package.
One of the greatest disservices we can render to Wes Clark is to try to use our own words to try to tell people what experiencing Wes Clark is like.
If there's a next campaign, I think I'll carry a portable DVD player wherever I go. That way people will at least be both seeing and hearing Wes Clark himself instead of my inevitably poor rendering of Wes Clark.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
BE THE CHANGE you wish to see in the world.
If not us, WHO? If not now, WHEN?
not necessarily so...I had several years invested in learning about Wes before drafting him and then nearly 3 years before I actually met him. (Yes, of course that was very special!)But from the time Wes accepted the draft, I have never wavered. I know some people are harder to convince but if we all had to meet Wes before we became convinced, well then certainly there wouldn't have been all of these WesPeople here for all of this time...
just sayin'
watch and listen...
I had not yet met Wes Clark when I fully committed to him, either. I didn't see him in person until November 9, 2003.
But I and most in the Draft had drunk in every word he wrote and every word he'd said and had watched countless interviews and speeches. I don't know that anybody else's supporters had studied the candidate like we did.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
BE THE CHANGE you wish to see in the world.
If not us, WHO? If not now, WHEN?
That's when we both decided Wes could do it. Made our first contribution that night, and immediately started attending as many local Wes functions as we could.
"Withdrawal without a plan is no better than invasion without a plan." (Dan Juma)
I was up on stage (along with the other people who attended the first Denver MeetUp), but was obscured by Mike Feeley right in front of me. It was then that I noticed how broad Clark's shoulders are, since I was behind him.
Did you get one of the rally signs? I bought those puppies -- 110 of them. The banner was mine, too. In fact, I never saw it again after that night.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
BE THE CHANGE you wish to see in the world.
If not us, WHO? If not now, WHEN?
I was at that function (I think it was a progressive movie, but my memory fades) with home-made computer printed signs, handing out Clark literature at the ticket line. Some other Clarkie there took pity and gave me one of the bigger plasticboard signs. If you bought it, thanks!
"Withdrawal without a plan is no better than invasion without a plan." (Dan Juma)
...since I was at the theater (both performances) passing out literature and greeting people in line and as they exited. It was some movie about the war. There were several Deaniacs, a few Kucitizens, and the ubiquitous Shawn Scanlon (great guy), the lone Edwardniac. Shawn and I became good friends, but I've lost track of him.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
BE THE CHANGE you wish to see in the world.
If not us, WHO? If not now, WHEN?
for something, and said he/they had more signs in the trunk. I think it was one of the first films to reveal all the lies that led up to the war. "The Truth About Iraq" or something. I had to leave just after the second performance got started.
"Withdrawal without a plan is no better than invasion without a plan." (Dan Juma)
Fantastic post, ms.
I liked Obama's speech at the Democratic National Convention, but am dismayed to see this rush to anoint him as the Democratic Nominee. He has little experience and a slim track record. As a person of faith, I find his scolding others who feel strongly about separation of church and state to be ill-placed (to put it mildly). I'm also not a bit fan of a senator as our next nominee, especially one barely two years into his first term.
My decision to support General Clark came about half a millesecond after I realized he was the one who stopped the Kosovo Genocide. I jumped in with both feet, and, after I caught my breath, realized what a fantastic human being (and candidate) he was, and how lucky I was to support someone like him. I was especially impressed with his brilliance, and never got the "anti-charisma" meme. I think he has plenty of it.
you burn the midnight oil, ms in la! Wonderful things come out of those hours from you! Thank you, thank mr in la and thank ella!! :D
Once in a while you get shown the light, In the strangest of places if you look at it right. - Hunter/Garcia
“If you put me on third base, I'll bring you home.” - Wes Clark
I can't get enthralled by Obama--zi think your analysis was right on!
The General gets it right.
Competence--What a concept!
in which he describes Obama as the "prohibitive favorite" and "doesn't think anyone can stop him." He also thinks Obama can beat McCain.
Am I really this out of touch?
Kos is just jumping on the bandwagon - more users, more ads. I've kept away from the site today after seeing him post this on thFP this morning. He will feature all the other runners as time goes on and he's never, to my knowledge, been great at picking winners - he follows main street opinion. Thank the Goddesses that main street isn't always right.
Remember, this is early early days and a lot of stuff will come down the pike.
Even hearing Ed saying to his audience today that Gates is only there for the next twenty months and Iraq is not going to be sorted out in that time. He's there to ensure W's legacy, but I believe that legacy is already set in stone.
"Some of them put on their cowboy boots and put their feet up on the desk." -Wes Clark
n/t
Statistics - systematic method for getting the wrong conclusion with 95% confidence.
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