General Wesley Clark on The Rachel Maddow Show

November 8, 2006
transcript by Reg NYC

Rachel Maddow: Of course, the major political development in Washington today other than the elections is the firing of Donald Rumsfeld. One day after a resounding defeat at the polls, Bush did announce today that Donald Rumsfeld would resign finally. We're joined now by General Wesley Clark. He's a former Commander of NATO, of course, was also a Democratic candidate for the Presidency in 2004, and General Clark joins us from Little Rock, Arkansas. General Clark, thank you so much for joining us.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you. It's good to be with you.

Rachel Maddow: Back in May of '04, you said you thought it would be the patriotic thing for Donald Rumsfeld to resign. Do you see his decision to resign today as, as the, as, as a patriotic thing?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I, you know, I think he knew that he wasn't getting any- He wasn't able to lead. He had used himself up.

Rachel Maddow: Hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And there wasn't anything more he could do, and I, I think that the President knew it. I, I was told two, three weeks ago the President was interviewing people to replace Rumsfeld. He, he, you know, people in public life, they, they have a certain half-life, and the more controversy they're in, and, and when things don't go right, they use up their persona.

Rachel Maddow: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Not only did he use it up, but he executed- he had fatally bad judgment.

Rachel Maddow: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So, he had to go.

Rachel Maddow: What do you think about - and you hear this a lot from, from the Republicans who had not called for his, him, his resignation - people like John Boehner have said that he's done so much for the military in terms of transforming the military. What do you think about that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't actually think he's done much in the way of transforming the military. The truth is he hasn't made the hard decisions. The military's still much, very much on glide path from where we left it when I took off my uniform in 2000.

Rachel Maddow: Do you think that he has to, that, that, I mean, one of the things that it, he's credited for is the idea that the military needs to have a smaller ground force and more advanced-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, that's absurd!

Rachel Maddow: -more advanced weaponry. And that seems- I mean, has, has that been bought as an idea, or with Rumsfeld leaving is that idea also gone?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: How s- Let me tell you how stupid this was. This was the Republican idea in 1991-

Rachel Maddow: Hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -after the Gulf War. So, we went from twelve U.S Army divisions to ten. Those were the ten that were maintained throughout the Clinton administration, because we knew we couldn't do it with any fewer.

Rachel Maddow: Mm hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Rumsfeld comes in and says, "Oh, well since you've already got, since you've already gone from twelve to ten, let's see if we can take a couple more." He gave no credit to the transformation that actually was done by Bill Clinton-

Rachel Maddow: Hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -during his time as Commander-in-Chief.

Rachel Maddow: I'm also worried because of those kinds of decisions - to say like this was the idea from 1991. He came in and, and, and he came in and, and, and re-enacted this sort of, this, this old thinking without any sort of plan for how things have changed in the interim. It also makes me worry about Bob Gates being the choice to replace Rumsfeld, because it seems to me also that Bob Gates is from another time, from another era. He's kind of been resurrected from the administration of Bush's dad. What do you think about him being picked?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think he's more pragmatic and less ideological-

Rachel Maddow: Okay.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -than Don Rumsfeld, and I think he'll have some catching up to do. But I think there's more of a chance that he will actually do his homework and, and, and learn experientially-

Rachel Maddow: Mm hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -rather than come in with preset solutions and just try to impose them.

Rachel Maddow: Do you feel like the next Secretary of Defense - whether it's Bob Gates or whether it's somebody else - do you feel like there is room to maneuver in terms of the civilian leadership at the Pentagon to make a major change in Iraq on, in, in short in, in a short timeframe, or do you think that things happen at, things need to happen only on a long timeframe now with Iraq?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK:Well, I don't think that the, the key to change in Iraq is at the Pentagon. I think it's at the White House.

Rachel Maddow: Hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that you must have a, a, a full U.S government policy to engage the region diplomatically, economically, politically as well as militarily. The biggest mistake the White House could make is to outsource foreign policy to the Pentagon.

Rachel Maddow: Mm. Which is what they've done and also with intelligence-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely. It's been-

Rachel Maddow: -with intelligence as well.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's been a disaster.

Rachel Maddow: What kind of policy would you like to see the, the soon-to-be Democratic controlled Congress promote when it comes to Iraq?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, something like a reverse Dayton Agreement. You know, when we were doing the Dayton talks in '95, I went with Richard Holbrook on his team, and we talked to everybody in the region. We even talked to war criminals.

Rachel Maddow: Hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And we got all their views. We, we went, we started with a set of principles, but then we went through the discussions, and we found areas of agreement. And we, as, as, as Holbrook said at the time, he couldn't tell we, whether we were negotiating or mediating.

Rachel Maddow: Huh.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was a little bit of both.

Rachel Maddow: But it's a pro- it's a process of regional engagement.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Exactly.

Rachel Maddow: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: This cannot be done just inside Iraq, and it certainly isn't just the military. And you cannot dictate it from Washington.

Rachel Maddow: General Wesley Clark, really grateful for your comments today. Thank you for taking the time to join us.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good to be with you Rachel.

Rachel Maddow: General Wesley Clark's former Democratic candidate for the Presidency in 2004, former Commander of NATO, and I think that is a very interesting, important point - the idea that Rumsfeld was seen as one of the adults when Bush came into office. Right? They appointed people from Bush's dad's administration so the adults would be in charge - people like Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. And Rumsfeld then set about letting the Pentagon, letting the area that was under his purview, take over all of the foreign policy aspects of the government that they could take over - from intelligence, to planning, to the, to obviously the military stuff as well - with disastrous consequences. Changing Rumsfeld out and leaving the structure of government as it is in the United States and the way we handle foreign policy won't be enough. The change has to happen higher up. Very interesting points.