General Wesley Clark on Washington Post Radio

January 9, 2007
transcript by RegNYC
[joined in progress]

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: ...Because Iran and Syria know this, they've had a vested interest from the outset in making sure we weren't successful in Iraq.

Anchorman: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They've continued to feed the conflict. Iran's got its hand on the rheostat, I believe, and can turn the violence up and down as suits its purposes. At first, they were happy to have us in there. We eliminated Saddam Hussein for them, got rid of the Ba'athists Army that they had fought in the 1981-88 period, and improved their security. Now they're ready for us to leave.

Ms. Anchorwoman: Now, what can diplomacy do that you don't think a troop surge can at this point?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think that, I think we have to come to terms with where, where we're going in the region. What is it that we're after in the region? What do we want? If we believe that we can take each of these governments, diverse as the peoples are, and sweep away what's there and install democracy, then I think it's a, it's a, it's a fantasy. It- Democracy emerges from a society. It's not imposed on it.

Ms. Anchorwoman: Mm hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So, if that's not a feasible vision, what is? It seems to me a much more feasible visions is to tamp down the expectations of conflict in the region. Get people to build bonds of economic cooperation, which are so strong and so interconnecting the societies, that they would view war as something they don't want, and then use the bonds of economic cooperation gradually to help transform the societies the same way that Eastern Europe was transformed through the policies of Ostpolitik and Detente.

Anchorman: I, I was going to ask you, you mentioned Europe, you, you played a big part during the Clinton administration. In fact, I remember being overseas with you on a, on, on a plane with President Clinton. You wouldn't (laughs) necessarily remember this particular flight, but this-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I bet I do.

Anchorman: But this was in Kosovo. There I was and there you are. What, what do you think the difference is here, or what lessons from your experience in Kosovo could be brought to bear? Vastly different parts of the world, vastly different personalities and conditions, but-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you have to sort of ask where we are in each case. Several different lessons: First of all, in Kosovo you know, we didn't go into it until we had tried every other possible measure. We, we, we went and used force against Milosevic and the Serbs only as a last, last, last resort. That wasn't the case of the administration in Iraq. They thought they, they misread the post-Cold War world. They thought it was okay to use forces and people would rejoice and welcome the Americans. They didn't appreciate how much nationalism and tribalism and sectarianism is still out there, and people don't- people value and cherish what they've grown up with and what, what's their own. So, the mistaken assumption at the start. Secondly, Before we went into Kosovo with the air campaign, we already had a ground camp- a ground plan approved by the UN and by NATO. We knew what we were going to do afterwards. This administration had no plan in Iraq. It- So, for those lessons, it's much different, and this administration didn't do it right in my view. But if you look ahead to Iran and you ask yourself, 'Well, what about Iran?' Here I, I see a chorus of voices beginning to sound the trumpet that Iran is a, a grave threat that has to be dealt with by force-

Anchorman:: Well, this, this almost-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that there's no way for diplomacy to deal with the Iranian's aspirations for nuclear capabilities and regional hegemony.

Ms. Anchorwoman: But although the, today the, the Treasury Department named Iran's state-owned bank as a proliferator of weapons of mass destruction, which basically means they can't do any business with the U.S. and their assets are frozen. Is that a good move?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: This is all part of a campaign of pressure against Iran, and in my experience, you have to have sticks and carrots, but you also have to have direct dialog. This administration has repeatedly refused to have that direct dialog with Iran. We've outsourced the diplomacy to the Europeans. We've gone to the United Nations. We talk on the margins, maybe of the UN Security Council, although that's not clear. But what we don't do is send a high level team directly to into Iran to change their mind.

Anchorman: Alright, I, I, we started out, General - we're talking with General Wes Clark here on Washington Post Radio - I started by asking you what you would go on television - the President's going to go on tomorrow night, face the nation, and he's going to give us his sort of 'new way forward' for Iraq - be specific on what you'd recommend in terms of our troop levels now and in the future.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'd recommend a surge of diplomatic activity in the region. I'd put together a flying squad of top diplomats representing the President, State, DOD. I'd let them carry a bag of tricks. There'd be some carrots. There'd be some sticks. There'd be some sanctions. There'd be some troops withdrawals. there'd be some troop enhancements. There'd be some repositioning options and they would talk to the Syrians, the Iraqis, everybody except the Al Qaeda in Iraq, and they would talk to the factions in Iraq. They'd talk to the Iranians, the Kuwaitis, the Jordanians, the Turks, the Saudis, everybody who has an interest in the region.

Anchorman: A-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They'd put together some ideas on common interests, and they'd come back and work on a program. We did this in the Balkans. We know it can be done if you put the right people over there with the right charter.

Anchorman: And-

Ms. Anchorwoman: Now we've fired things up, and there's so much violence between the Shia and Sunni that's spilled over actually, you know, outside of Iraq now into neighboring jurisdictions. We see fighting between Hezbullah and, and Hamas. I mean, i, it, how, how do we even begin to tackle all of that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, we can't begin to tackle it by adding to the violence. That should be our last resort-

Anchorman: Well, you mention-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -because, you know in the, in, in the world, when you kill people, their relatives don't like it. And in that part of the world-

Ms. Anchorwoman: Mm hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -they vow revenge, and so if you, you may have to use force, but it should be the last option.

Anchorman: Well, a lot of what's going on there is sectarian revenge and, and fighting-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely.

Anchorman: -and you, you said it yourself, 'When people's relatives get killed, they seek revenge.' You know, we would have to see if that spins out of control, but you, you mentioned Iran, General Clark, and a lot of this seems to come down to Iran. We keep reading reports about the Saudis, the Jordanians, the Egyptians. These are all Sunni governments, and other Sunni governments in the Gulf States being very concerned about what happens in Iraq, but all of the eyes are on Iran and not giving Iran influence there, So, it, it, it seems to me that this whole machinery and, and even what the President says about Iraq, is geared to Iran as well.

Ms. Anchorwoman: A, a, and in fact, those countries are now saying that they'll support the Sunnis if they continue coming under fire from the Shi'ites.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I think that's precisely the problem that, with the President's approach. He is, he is going after the smaller of the issues and the dependent issue. The independent issue, the overarching issue that has to be dealt with is Iran. What he's doing by surging troops into Iraq is he's buying time. It's 'stay the course'. It's more of the same. I'm sure that when you put more troops on the ground, you can put up more roadblocks, and I think if you had more roadblocks, you'll stop more traffic. And I think if you can stay in more areas, you'll have more intimidation of the militias, make it more difficult for them to move.

Anchorman: Right.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I think you will, hopefully, be able to suppress some of the violence, albeit at the risk of greater U.S. casualties. But what will be the significant lasting effect of this? Iran can generate additional conflict inside Iraq. I think that's the conclusion of the people who've been there, and most of the informed observers in the region. And so, we're putting 22,000 troops in or so. They'll up the ante as well, and what we'll have is a more intensive conflict but still a conflict.

Anchorman: Well-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: What we're doing is buying time while the Iranians are building nuclear capability. It's a dangerous course of action.

Anchorman: I wonder, I wonder, General, how you'd respond to Senator Lindsay Graham, who said this the other day on Meet The Press.

On tape:


Lindsay Graham: My biggest fear, as a United States Senator, as an American, is that we will make a political decision to leave Iraq without thinking about what's left when we leave. Nobody wants to talk about what happens when we leave. I understand it's not popular, but this war is not about the moment. It's about the next decade and the decade to follow. It's about our national security interests. It's about the war on terror - moderates verses extremists.

Anchorman: There is some concern about that, General, and it's a point the President is likely to make tomorrow night and again and again.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK:: Well, I think it's a straw man argument. The Democratic Party understands very well what the consequences would be of a premature or a rapid immediate departure from Iraq. And so to set that up as the argument and say, 'If you don't agree with us, you must be arguing for this,' is a straw man argument. It's not coming to terms with the real issue. Here's the real issue: Are we able to deal with Iraq and Iran directly, or are we simply marking time with Iraq and waiting to come to the point where there are no other options for Iran but a military strike? Because if you look at that option, it's not a very good option.

Anchorman: And we're going to have to let it go there.

Ms. Anchorwoman: Army General Wesley Clark, thanks for being here.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.