General Wesley Clark on The Rachel Maddow Show on AAR

January 11, 2007
transcript by Reg NYC

Rachel Maddow: In the London Independent newspaper last weekend, our next guest wrote, "There's little hope that the troops surge, Iraqi promises and accompanying rhetoric will amount to anything other than 'stay the course' more that wasted lives and time, perpetuates the appeal of the terrorists, and simply brings us closer to the showdown with Iran." So, it's a safe bet that our next guest did not hear much he liked in the President's address to nat- to the nation last night. Retired General Wesley Clark is the former Supreme Commander of NATO, a Presidential candidate in 2004. He joins us on the phone from Little Rock, Arkansas. General Clark, thank you for joining us again. Nice to have you back.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, thanks Rachel. Good to be with you.

Rachel Maddow: As we anticipated, the President called for that increase of about 21,000 or 22,000 troops to Iraq. Do you think that it will make a significant difference in our military capability in Iraq?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think it'll help militarily in Baghdad. I think it is significant. I mean, this is a- with five brigades going in, in, in Baghdad, 14, you, you're talking about increasing U.S. troops overall by 20%. So, you asked me, 'Would it make a significant difference in military capability?' Yes.

Rachel Maddow: Do you think that there's lessons to be learned from Operation Together Forward, which was the last time this past year when we saw a surge of thousands of U.S. troops into Baghdad. That was abandoned after not too long, after they said it caused in increase of 43% in violence in Baghdad.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, that's the risk here, and-

Rachel Maddow: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -the real problem we're dealing with is that the underlying causes of the violence are political. The, the President's plan assumes that people are fighting because they're afraid, and that you can put enough troops in, you can smother the violence. That may be part of the problem, but that's not all of the problem. People are fighting in Iraq because it's a fight for survival and power, and it's waged not with a battle of ideas through a free press, but it's waged with a battle of militias and intimidation and fear. And absent solution to the underlying political problems, those pressures are likely to continue. It may be harder, initially, for the militias to move when you put more roadblocks in, but they'll figure out how to continue the fight if that's what they want to do.

Rachel Maddow: When-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And that's the real problem with the President's plan. It's tactical not strategic.

Rachel Maddow: If you were going to recommend a strategic change right now, what kind of strategic change would you recommend?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think you have to craft a new policy for the region. That starts with trying to figure out what U.S. interests are and, and defining the, the ways to go after those interests. And I know that this administration believes that U.S. interests require regime change in Syria and Iran.

Rachel Maddow: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's what they've said, and if that's the case, then we're moving toward a showdown with Iran. So, I, I don't know if that's the case. Isn't it possible that if we had looked at, lets say, Eastern Europe and Russia, Soviet Union in the 1970's and early 80's, we'd have said, 'Look, our interests are incompatible, and there's no choice but to have a showdown with them'? There were people who pushed for that.

Rachel Maddow: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And there were people who pushed for that back in the 1950's. In the 1950's, President Eisenhower rejected preventive war with The Soviet Union. People actually told Ike, 'We've got the h-bomb. They don't have it yet. Let's attack now before they can get an h-bomb.' He refused. In the 1980's, President Reagan sat down at Reykjavik with Soviet Premier Gorbachev - actually sat down and talked with him, and Reagan was exposed to a lot of criticism after that. But you know what? It was the beginning of the end of The Soviet Union.

Rachel Maddow: Speaking of Eisenhower, we've got the aircraft carrier, the Eisenhower there now. The Stennis is on their way over to kind of glower over at Iran. Do you feel like the increase in, the, the increase in, in, in firepower that we've got physically moving closer to Iran right now is meant to be a real threat? Do you, do you see a showdown happening?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I see this administration preparing for that, yeah.

Rachel Maddow: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I think there has to be a military option in dealing with Iran, but I don't think that should be the first option, and it should not be the only option at this point. There's still time for dialog, and if you look at how we handled Eastern Europe in the Cold War, I think it's a model for what could be done here. We didn't attack Eastern Europe. What we did is we opened them up with a can opener. We put in Western-style loans. We pushed media in there, and we basically caused the people to lose sup- their faith in their own governments, and the governments fell. I think human nature is pretty constant across the globe. People are concerned about their families, their children. They want a better life. They want security. They don't want war, but if they're threatened, they'll fight.

Rachel Maddow: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Most people are proud of where they've grown up, and they believe, most people, in what their parents believed in. That's human nature, and therefore if you're dealing with Iran and you push them and want a war with them, you'll find them willing to fight. They're struggling right now against us inside Iraq, because they view U.S. success in the region as a direct threat to their survivability. What we have to do is change that perception.

Rachel Maddow: In case you're just joining us, our guest is General Wesley Clark. General Clark, in terms of domestic politics here, if, if the Congress feels that, if a majority of the Congress feels that the administration is misusing American military power, that the escalation is the wrong idea, that any future potential actions against Iran are the wrong idea, should the Congress, in your opinion, act to block the President from his military decisions by using the power of the budget?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't know. I, I think we've got a real ways to go before that happens. What I do think the Congress should be doing is insisting that the Captain of the Titanic look up ahead for the iceberg instead of argue about how many chairs are on the front deck or foredeck of the Titanic, and right now we're running straight into an iceberg.

Rachel Maddow: How can the, how can- the answer can't be that Bush doesn't know what's happening though. I mean even if he only reads one paper every fourth day, He's got to know-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I think he knows what's happening.

Rachel Maddow: -after this long, what's happening. Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He knows what's happening. It's the way he sees the world, I guess. He sees it in a confrontational mode, but you know, what I learned in my time in government was that the glass is always half empty and the glass is always half full. And if you look for ways to try to head off problems, you might find them. If you believe that fighting and war is inevitable, it probably is.

Rachel Maddow: : Well, we ended up- we know that we got into war in Iraq for all the wrong reasons. A majority of the American people for a very long time now, has felt that we shouldn't have gone in in the first place, it was a mistake. It's not going well now. They'd like to see the troops home now. The question, tactically, though is just different now than it's ever been at any other time on the war, and that is because there's a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress. And I'm feeling like, you know, with that brigade of the 82nd Airborne on their way, or are possibly even already there, with 20,000 more troops going - if that's a bad idea, I think we ought to just stop it from happening. I think that the American people are done with this, and the President is wrong. He's had all the consultation he could possibly have on this, and he's still making the wrong decisions. I think the Democrats in Congress ought to step in, take over.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think the Democrats in Congress are going to have a very hard time taking over, because it's really- the truth is that it is the Commander-in-Chief's responsibility to run foreign policy. What the Democrats ought to be aiming for is to get the President to change the strategy. That's the most important consideration here.

Rachel Maddow: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'm in- I'm all in favor- I mean, I don't see that there's anything significant be, going to be gained by this troop increase. I will tell you that, as any military leader will, you put more troops in there, you'll have more roadblocks, and you'll have more snipers, and you'll have more patrols, and if you think that's the key to winning in Baghdad, then that made sense. I don't happen to believe that's the key. I think the problem is that when we escalate, Iran and, and, and insurgents and Shia militia can escalate. And so, they will counter-escalate against us. That's the real danger of what's happening, but on the other hand, I don't believe the United States can simply fold up its tents, line up on the road, and march out. I think what we've got to do is get a strategy for the region. We have broader interests in that region than simply Iraq. We've got to look at the threat posed by Iranian regional hegemony, their effort to acquire nuclear weapons and all of the concerns in the region have to be addressed. And that means we need a new strategy.

Rachel Maddow: General Clark, one final question for you: Any chance you're going to run for President in 2008?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I haven't made any decisions on that. I haven't said I won't, and right now, I'm, I'm really concerned about the policy. And you know, what I learned that last time was that as soon as you start talking about running, then people say, 'Aw well, he's just saying that for political reasons.'

Rachel Maddow: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So, I'd like to get these positions out. I'd like the American people and especially your listeners here on Air America to understand these positions. These are not put out there for some political gamesmanship. This is what I believe. I've spent my lifetime in public service. These are, I believe, the right ways to go. Fix the strategy. They've got to find an alternative to a showdown with Iran before it's too late. Otherwise we'll have to follow through with a showdown, and the Iranians won't like it, but we won't like it either. So, don't use force unless you absolutely have to. This administration's marching us towards situation where they could've avoided the use of force, and it, and they may be ultimately then they feel they're forced to use it. They aren't, not yet. So, I don't want to talk about politics. I want to get the policy right.

Rachel Maddow: That's why I saved the question for last, just so you know.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I know.

Rachel Maddow: (laughs)

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I know.

Rachel Maddow: General Clark, thank you for joining us. I really appreciate you making the time for us. Thank you.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK:: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Rachel Maddow: General Wesley Clark, former Supreme Commander of NATO, a Democratic Presidential candidate in 2004, taking time out of his day to join us today from Arkansas.