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January 12, 2007General Wesley Clark on the Stephanie Miller Radio Show
January 12, 2007
Transcription by Melange
Stephanie Miller: It is the Stephanie Miller Show. Welcome to it. Thirty-three minutes after the hour. Oh, is there no light at the end of this escalation tunnel? Why, if only somebody could call to…oh, well let’s say I’m hoping now that he’s calling to declare for president.
Who is it Chris?
Chris: It’s General Wesley Clark!
Stephanie Miller: What? He’s my favorite.
Chris: He’s my favorite too.
Stephanie Miller:: Are you calling to declare for president?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK:
Stephanie Miller: I tried to take you off guard right away.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Uh…no, I’m not ...
Stephanie Miller: Damn.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: ... but I am concerned about the policies
Stephanie Miller: Hey General Clark, thank you so much for calling. You know what, I just…you know I say this all the time. I did that event with you in person…every time I see you on tv, I just…you know…you talk such good sense and I, I think so many people are just so…really appalled at this, you know. We’ve got the, you know 70% of the American people are against this escalation plan, the generals he just fired…eh…a bunch of Republicans…wh…what is your take on all this?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think the president backed himself into a corner to be honest with you. This is the centerpiece of his administration. He’s being forced to admit failure. He’s not going to admit failure if he can avoid it until there’s an absolute catastrophe over there. And, his choice was to admit failure or to escalate. Um, he couldn’t escalate by more than the 21,500 because it just wasn’t feasible. We’ve basically ruined America’s ground forces over a period of years and…and we’ve…instead of adding to the troops when we could have we didn’t and now we don’t have enough. And so he’s in a difficult position. I…I think the real problem is that he’s looked at it politically instead of strategically.
Stephanie Miller: Well, General, that’s what really is offending…well I know me and I just think so many people. You know, this isn’t some…you know, I don’t know…ear mark or farm bill. This is our kids’ lives and the Republicans are playing politics with this. You know, I’m sure you tune in every night and see Sean Hannity calling Democrats flip-floppers because they were for the surge. It’s like ‘we were for the surge when the generals said we needed more troops back in the beginning.’ You know, that’s not…I mean, this is not…we should not be playing politics with this.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: To be honest, I didn’t watch Sean Hannity.
Stephanie Miller: I don’t blame you. You have to talk to him in person – that’s probably enough.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But, I do believe this. If you put more troops in, you will get more roadblocks. You’ll get more patrols, you’ll get more people kicking down doors, arresting people and so forth. The problem has been twofold. First, that the US troops…really, they’re not the right people to do this. It’s the Iraqis and the Iraqi troops haven’t been reliable and there’s no assurance they’re going to be more reliable now. Apparently the word on the street is from the…in Baghdad that there’s really mixed feelings about this initiative of the President. This is not like the people of Baghdad are rejoicing the Americans are now coming in in strength to save us. It’s not
Stephanie Miller: I…I just
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It’s not quite like that.
Stephanie Miller: I just said this General Clark, but the New York Times is reporting that, that of course they’re floated this that this is Maliki’s idea and the New York Times is reporting that Maliki doesn’t want this.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right. So, the tactics of it are not likely to be very effective. The real problem though is strategically. We’re…we’re on the fault line between shu…Sunni and Shia Islam. Saddam Hussein was the stopper in the bottle. He was the cork. When we got rid of Saddam, some cataclysm was inevitable. The Shias wanted their place in the sun. They’re the majority in the country.
Stephanie Miller: mm-hm
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They were going to take it. When they aligned themselves with Iran, it sends shockwaves through the entire region. This is a 700-year struggle
Stephanie Miller: mm-hm
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: and it doesn’t look like it’s going to go away. So, it’s not clear how 20,000 troops affects all of that. For example, if the 20,000 troops were to go against the militias, Ira…Iran can send in more advisers, assistants, training devices and explosive devices to restore the military balance. If the 20,000 troops go against the Sunnis, then what you have is um, the Iranians and Shias being very happy and the Saudis under the table feeding more money to Anbar province to establish a Sunni stronghold in Anbar province. So there’s no easy answer to this
Stephanie Miller: Yeah, well
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: and the real problem is political, it’s strategic over there, it’s not about being able to smother the violence with a few more US troops.
Stephanie Miller: Well, and General Clark, I mean obviously a lot of people are really concerned about this Iranian thing that the president suddenly mentioned. That…you know, I mean, I think people are terrified.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You know, when I was testifying in September 2002 in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee, they asked me about the initial draft of the resolution and it said, and he was authorized to take…it was going to give the president the authority to take action in Iraq and in the region as necessary. And, I said ‘I don’t believe that region needs to be there’ and Senator Warner came down to see me afterwards – he was then the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. He said, he said ‘young general,’ he said ‘you’re too…probably too young to remember this,’ he said ‘but the Vietnam war was lost because they had a secret bombing campaign in Laos and Cambodia,’ he said ‘and when Congress found out about it, it killed all the support for the war,’ he said ‘so we don’t want to do anything in secret here, we want it authorized up front.’ And
Stephanie Miller: You know, I’m…I’m still trying to get past the fact that he called the Supreme NATO Commander of Europe “young general.”
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I was retired at that point.
Stephanie Miller: I see. I see. Let me…so General, I mean obviously
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK:: Maybe he didn’t call me “young general.” He just…basically came up and said, you know ‘you’re too young to remember this”
Stephanie Miller: I see.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Of course I wasn’t too young – I was a captain at the time, I was teaching at West Point.
Stephanie Miller: I see.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I was reading the New York Times everyday, debating Vietnam incessantly with my civilian friends in the area
Stephanie Miller: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: and I had already been to Vietnam and I remember well.
Stephanie Miller: Well, General,
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The policy has to be successful. When you’re the president of the United States and you set out a strategy, you’re expected to succeed, just like if you’re the CEO of General Motors. And when you don’t succeed, the American people don’t support it. That’s what democracy’s about.
Stephanie Miller: mm-hm
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So in this case, what you’ve got is more of the same. This is ‘stay the course’ more. And, the American people are not going to support it.
Stephanie Miller: Well, General…wh…let’s get to the point of what do we do because I’m…I mean, you know…I have heard people actually even say ‘well, politically this is good for the Democrats,’ it’s like ‘let them continue in this disastrous plan’ but I really believe that the Democrats really care about our kids and the people who are dying. That, you know…you can’t…this just is not a time for politics. The Republicans are talking about a filibuster and you know… trying to be able to blame the Democrats politically. I…I just think we as a country have to figure out how to get out of this disaster.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well in my experience, if you want a war, you can have one. Because people will fight you. And so if we…if we as America believe that conflict with Iran is inevitable, that there’s an attitude of sort of ‘bring it on, let’s get it over with,’ we’ll have that conflict. We won’t like that conflict because it won’t be easily resolved. It’s unlikely that the Iranian government will…would ever sign a formal surrender document to us. We don’t have enough troops to occupy Iran. If we did, we would find out that it’s a polyglot country just like many of the countries in the region with many minority groups and ethnic pulls and tugs and it would be a pain in the neck to try to occupy a nation of 75 million people who were browbeaten into submission. We don’t need that. And um…so
Stephanie Miller: Well General, what is your take on what Democrats can
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We’ve got to back away from…we’ve got…we’ve got to take another look at the broad thrust of where we’re headed. Somehow we’ve got to go into the region and change people’s minds and say ‘look, we have choice…we have free will, we’re human beings. We don’t have to have war.’
Stephanie Miller: Right
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So why are we having war?
Stephanie Miller: Right. General, what’s your take on what the Democrats can or should do to stop this? I feel like our intervention has failed and the president’s going out drinking again and we’re in the back seat and he’s driving. What can we do, in your opinion?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I’d like to see the Democrats use the power of Congress. And I’d like to see them use it this way: I’d like to see them find a way to force the President to confront the strategic issues
Stephanie Miller: Right
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: not the tactical issues. Imagine this way…imagine it this way: you’re on a ship and let’s say it’s…I don’t know, November of 19-whatever it was, 12? Um, and the ship is sailing from let’s say Liverpool
Stephanie Miller: Oh my gosh, Commissioner Gordon’s calling. That’s a…
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: and when it sails…and it sails from Liverpool and um, you see in the darkness approaching this looming iceberg and you run to the captain and you say ‘I have a premonition that we might strike this i…’ he says ‘don’t worry, this ship’s unsinkable.’ He said ‘anyway, what I’m more worried about is whether we should move these chairs from the aftdeck to the foredeck
Stephanie Miller: That’s exactly it
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And, then the passengers, he said ‘I’m going to ask the opinion of the passengers,’ he said ‘attention all passengers,’ and there’s a large debate about the chairs. Meanwhile the ship’s plowing ahead in the seas towards its destiny and that’s my concern,
Stephanie Miller: mm-hm
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: is that the United States Congress should not get drawn down into the issue of how many brigades are on the streets of Baghdad. That is not the appropriate issue
Stephanie Miller: yep
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: for the United States Congress.
Stephanie Miller: Yep, I mean person after person has said there is no military solution. General, we always are just so honored to have you with us and when you do declare for president, you’ll do it here, won’t you?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK:
Stephanie Miller: You’re not easily tricked.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You’ve got a great show and I appreciate being on with you. And let’s ask our Congress to look at the big picture.
Stephanie Miller: Alright, alright. General, thank you so much. Please come on anytime.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
Stephanie Miller: Alright.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Bu-bye now.
Stephanie Miller: There he goes, General Wesley Clark.
