General Wesley Clark and Jon Stoltz on "Heading Left" on Blog Talk Radio

February 22, 2007

transcript by Reg NYC

James Boyce: Welcome to Heading Left. Who's this?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Wes Clark is here.

James Boyce: General Clark, it's James Boyce. How are you, Sir?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Fine, James. How are you doing?

James Boyce: Good. I got Nate Wilcox with me today.

Nate Wilcox: General.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Hi, Nate. Good to talk to you.

James Boyce: We'll we were just talking, as maybe you heard, about stopiranwar.com,

and I was just saying, General Clark, that I'm not much into listening to draft dodging politicians and people that specialize in deferments, but I sure as heck am going to listen to you. And I know that if you've stood up and you started stopiranwar.com and worked on the Huffington Post piece yesterday which got great reception. So let's just, let's dive right in. Why are you so concerned about this? And, and we've got a little, I see a little over 11,000 people have gone to the website, and let's try to get 11,000 more. But take it away. What, what's your concern, and why is it so timely?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think the Iranians are working hard to get a nuclear weapon. If they get it, it will change the balance of power in the region. It will set off a nuclear arms race, raise insecurity levels even higher in, inside Israel and friendly states in the region, and it will, it will jeopardize our hopes to peacefully resolve some of the ongoing quarrels in the region. So, it's a very dangerous thing if it moves ahead. I can understand why the Iranians want it. They believe it'll give them greater influence. They probably think it'll keep the United States from threatening them. They probably think it'll also let them provide what we call "extended deterrence" for Hizbullah when it confronts Israel. But what we have to do is we have to persuade the Iranians that they're a whole lot better off if they don't move to acquire these weapons. Now, the problem is that it's real tough to persuade people if you won't talk to them. This administration has refused for four years, five years after 9/11 to talk to the Iranians. They've come to us three times. We've turned them down, and we're still turning them down.

James Boyce: Why would you do that, General? I mean, I mean, you know we'd, we'd talk to- I mean one of the reasons we avoided, you know, a conflict in the Cold War - I mean, you know this better than I or Nate - but isn't it because we had conversations and open dialog, and you know, wasn't there even a telephone line from the Kremlin to the White House? I mean, why would you not talk to somebody?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The right question to ask. I've been asking it for four years, and the answer is, the latest answer from the White House is they don't have enough leverage to talk to the Iranians. 'Poor me.' The United States, we're only the greatest economic power in the world. We only have the capacity to tromple all over Iranian airspace and drop bombs on anything we want. We only control all of the economic organizations that could make a difference in the future of Iran as well as the oil industry and the technology in the oil industry. And we don't have enough leverage to talk to Iran. Sounds like an excuse to me.

James Boyce: Well, also, General, if I could interrupt one second, John Soltz, I believe you're on with us. John-

John Soltz: How-

James Boyce: Welcome to Heading Left.

John Soltz: How are you James. Glad to be back on.

James Boyce: Thank you so much for joining us. You know, General, what's interesting is, is that somebody said that, you know, if, if we talk to Iran, that the Bush administration loses their boogieman, and they lose the fear factor. Do you think that's true? I mean, do you think that's part of- because, I mean, certainly, I mean, you know better than I, but the United States has tens of thousands of nuclear weapons. I mean, we- If there was a serious threat from Iran and it was immediate, we could take action. Right?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely.

James Boyce: I mean, they don't really threaten us. Do they?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (inaudible) and that we could deter- There's no question the we have the military force that should rationally deter Iran. You, you know, deterrence is in the mind of the participant. So, you can never speak for the, for the mind of somebody else, but the record of Iran is that they're pretty calculating. They're pretty rational. They're pretty careful before they step on people's toes. They're not reckless. They are, they are pushy, and right now they've been in a triumphalist mood. And so, we've got options in dealing with Iran, but we won't find those options if we won't talk to them.

Nate Wilcox: General, this is Nate. One, one question that came to mind, a lot of people have been pointing out that almost all of Iran's neighbors have become nuclear powers in the last decade - You know, Pakistan, India, Israel. What, what do you say to the Iranians in that regard? I mean, it seems like the Bush administration has a policy of rewarding bad behavior. Witness, you know, the discussions with North Korea. What do, what do we say to Iran when they say they're being punished for obeying the rules?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, they're not actually obeying the rules. They are, there are some serious unresolved issues with the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency. If they would obey the rules and open up their books and so forth, then maybe we could believe that they don't have a covert nuclear weapons program, but right now the evidence all points in that direction. So, they're not obeying the rules, but what I would say to Iran is we, I would be happy to entertain the security dialog Iran, with Iran. 'What makes you unhappy? What are you afraid of? What, is it unresolved border issue? Is it- what is it exactly?' And if it's, 'Ah well, we just want our port on the Mediterranean. We want to protect Hizbullah,' you'd have to ask why. If they say, 'We have an issue with Israel, you'd say, 'Well, why don't you back off and let's let the Palestinians and the Israelis settle this issue?' If they say, 'We just can't live unless we destroy Israel,' we'd say, 'Well, that's not an option that you can have,' and we'd tell them and put them on straight notice that that's off the table. That's not for discussion, and furthermore, you know, we can double and triple and quadruple the pressure against you if you keep that as your policy. But we have to do this through dialog. We cannot do it indirectly, and we cannot do it by signaling weird things like moving aircraft carrier battle groups around. They either think we're going to use them or they don't.

James Boyce: Do you think the Patriot Missile Defense Systems that have been moved into Iraq are, are in anticipation of conflict with Iran?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think if you were preparing for conflict with Iran that you would want to make sure you had some Patriot Air Defense Systems in place. Whether they actually are put in there for that reason or for diplomatic bluff really doesn't matter. It's what you'd call, it, it's just called, it'd be called a flexible option. You would just put it in and it would increase the pressure on Iran to let them know you're thinking about it and what you might do to inhibit their response (-drop out-) diplomatic move probably.

Nate Wilcox: Cool. I've got a question for John. John, what, what precipitated starting the Stop Iran War movement?

John Soltz: Well, I, I mean, I think this is the future battlefield. You know, when I was in Iraq in 2003, we, we had already had Iranian influence inside of Iraq. Of, of course they're going to be interested in, in the state itself. It's, it's very similar to what Iran does in Hezbullah, with Hezbullah in Lebanon. So, the Iranian influence has just drastically increased over the years inside, inside the country, and I think any attempt to sort of downplay that is probably inaccurate. Once we got up-armored equipment inside the country in 2005, force penetrators - which are shape charges that they, they can actually penetrate our armor and, and are extremely lethal to our troops - had begun showing up in, in mostly Shia predominately, or predominantly Shia communities. So, the, the influence with Iran has, has begun, and I think when you look at the faces of the war, you know, first you have the sort of toppling of, of the regime inside Baghdad. And then you have the establishment of the Iraqi government, and then you have the protection of the Iraqi government. But I think there's a larger question of is there a proxy war that's begun with Iran already in Iraq, and I think there's a larger question that General Clark sort of touched on was why now are, are they, you know, sort of putting out the evidence that's long been known that Iran's playing a large influence in Iraq, that in actuality the war in Iraq's emboldened Iran, that it's strengthened them inside, inside the region and that they, they now have their ability to have another Shia ally in the, in the heart of the Shia-Sunni fault line. So that the, you know, in, in reality this is actual complete backfire for the President where, where Bin Laden's still on the loose, and now Iran is more dominant in the region, and it, it, it's got a stronger Hezbullah. But yet, at the same time, this President's sort of trying to twist it as a way to, to you know, force a political leverage or, or whether that's for force or dialog is, is to be seen. So, this is sort of where the future debate in the Middle East and in our security debate's headed in, in my regards. And I think, you know, that's why we have the stopiranwar.com website, you know, is to sign this petition and explain that, you know, striking Iran would only further complicate and undermine our troops in Iraq. It would mean more force penetrators that, that, that, you know, can, can kill our troops. It'll mean a stronger Mehdi Army, better trained militias. So, I, I think that's the argument we're trying to make.

James Boyce: General, you know the- you were very successful in Kosovo and, and what is it like to have to sit there and look at young men like, like John Soltz who've been serving in Iraq, a lot of other young men that are over there and young women too? It must be very hard as a General who's successfully concluded a mission to, to watch a mission like this and watch so many people in harms way.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's deeply painful. I feel for the troops, the families. I go through Walter Reed and see wounded soldiers and talk to veterans in every airport across the country when I travel and a lot of people come up to me. And it's a, it's a very painful thing to, to see the United States exploiting courage and the commitment of the men and women in uniform and sending them into a war that we didn't have to fight without adequate numbers and the proper equipment and still over four years later refusing to adopt a winning strategy.

James Boyce: What, you know, speaking of Walter Reed, you know one of the things that just, you know - and General, you know this from, from my background and the Kerry campaign and, and what I've tried to do with, you know, with John Soltz and other veterans - one of the things that drives me just absolutely insane is, is this 'Support the Troops' and you know, you have to support the troops by somehow leaving them in Iraq. And, and once and for all, I mean, why does it happen that we're in a situation where so many of the dynamic veteran leaders are Democrats, and yet somehow the Republicans still seem to be waving the, the patriotism flag? Does that bother you as much as it bothers me?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm happy that, when everybody waves the patriotism flag. I think it's really great that everybody supports the troops, and they're worthy of support. But what the troops need most is a winning strategy. You can't expect the troops to create it themselves. And the truth is that people join the Armed Forces for a lot of different reasons. Some of them join, because it's an economic lifeline. Some of them join because it's a, a way point to college. Some of them join for patriotism. Some of them, they join because it was if you went into the National Guard, you could get college free and all that, and suddenly they get swept up in this. Some of them like authority, and they're inclined to being in an organization that means what it says and says what it means and it ha- (-drop out-) a masculine aura about it that they identify with. I-i-it, it's like a football team. I-i-t can be rough, and you're expected to be physically fit and expect to go out there and hit and, and take hits. And so, it's easy to see how when you're a young, especially young man growing up and you've been in the sessions with the coach and you've heard him talk on, before the game, on Friday night, that it's pretty easy to, to transfer those, some of those attitudes into the military. But the people in uniform, they're just like anybody else. They don't see all the information. They don't know all the forces at play. They've got various political opinions about it. The support they need is the right mission, the right strategy, and the right equipment, and good leadership. I think we've got good leaders in Iraq, but I don't think we've always given them the best equipment. I don't think we have a winning strategy, and I think we gave them a mission and asked them to risk their lives when we didn't really have to do it.

James Boyce: General, I know I just got, I just got a call from one of John Soltz's trusty companions that you need to run, but I need to ask you a question, because it's the question that Nate and I got e-mailed more than we can possible imagine. It's February 2007. If this situation in Iraq doesn't resolve itself, it gets, if it gets worse, if the, if war happens with Iran, will you run for President?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I haven't said I won't.

James Boyce: (laughs) Well, I can tell you, there's a lot of people. Nate, I think Nate joins me in thanking you both for being on the show today and also to let you know that there's a lot of people out there that hope you do. And General Clark, I mean, on behalf of everybody in the Democratic Party and in fact all Americans, thank you for all your service and I know there's a lot of things you could be doing right now. But I, I certainly appreciate that you're out there every day fighting for our men and women in uniform and, and fighting with people like John Soltz. John, thanks so much for coming on today.

John Soltz: Oh James, thanks for having me on.

James Boyce: And-

John Soltz: (laughs)

James Boyce: -as always Soltz, we'll do whatever we can to help, and-

John Soltz: Great, send everyone to our, to the website, stopiranwar.com

James Boyce: We've already done that once, and we're going to go back on right now.

John Soltz: Okay.

James Boyce: Thank you, General Clark.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Great to be with you all.

James Boyce: Okay, take care of yourself.

Nate Wilcox: Thank y'all.