6/16/07 - General Wesley Clark on MSNBC News Live

General Wesley Clark on MSNBC News Live

June 16, 2007
Transcription by Melange

Segment 1

Alex Witt: Mideast turmoil, the crisis deepening today as the struggle moves to the West Bank where Fatah gunmen are sweeping into Hamas cold institutions, controlled rather. They're taking them over by force. With me now, MSNBC analyst, Retired US Army General Wesley Clark. General, good morning to you, sir.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good morning, Alex.

Alex Witt: So is it fair to say that we are now seeing the emergence of two separate Palestinian states? Is that how you read it?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That is how I read it. I think that Hamas has a…apparently a very very strong grip on Gaza and uh, Israel, the Palestinian Authority, the United States, the west, the Saudis…no one quite knows how to crack this grip because there's one and a quarter million people living in Gaza and so you can't starve them out, you can't blockade them out, you create a humanitarian crisis and the concern is that Gaza is going to become a hotbed of al Qaeda-like radicalism.

Alex Witt: Um, General, before we look ahead to the next step, I'm curious. How did we get to this point in the first place? Is this simply the inevitable result of those surprise elections when Hamas took power of Parliament or do you think this could have been avoided?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I think it's the consequence of a long-term struggle within the Islamic world and particularly within the Palestinian groups between a Yasser Arafat-led, corrupt, relatively more moderate organization that might have been prepared to concede the existence of Israel and harder-line, more Islamic organizations. So it's the outcome of a long…years long, struggle going back before the early 90's into the late 80's. Um, it's been financed by Iran. So this is not a rapid emergence. The elections were a consequence of this long struggle and this struggle is going to continue.

Alex Witt: What about the US role in this situation, sir, over the last year and a half?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well the United States had…believes it had little choice but to, but to try to isolate the Hamas because they've rejected the existence of the state of Israel and they promote violence. So basically the Saudis created a unity government a few months ago, in an agreement called a ‘Mecca Agreement' which was going to let Hamas and Fatah be in the same uh government and then that was going to open the door. But that agreement has broken down now. So the United States really finds itself with very few options in dealing with Hamas.

Alex Witt: So, now what? How do you see this all playing out in the coming weeks and months?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well it's like a giant chess game in the Middle East. This is part of an Iranian, let's call it a strategic pincers movement, a political military movement that on the one hand has the United States ensnared in Iraq and on the other hand is using Hamas to further radicalize the region, to isolate Israel and to take away options that the United States might have. So I see this as a…one more step along a very dangerous path. Think of it as the jaws of a trap that are slowly squeezing the United States and Israel and cutting off our options for diplomacy, our options for bringing a successful agreement in the Middle East, our options for dealing successfully with Iraq. This is a very dangerous big power play and we're just seeing part of the jaws close here.

Alex Witt: Alright General, I have more questions on the US role in all this so we're going to have you back as you might expect. More questions from Alex. Okay General, thank you so much.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you Alex.

Segment 2

Alex Witt: Mayhem in the Mideast. This morning yet more violence between the Palestinian factions with the show of force from Fatah on the West Bank taking over Hamas-controlled government buildings. With me now, MSNBC analyst, Retired US Army General Wesley Clark. Welcome back General.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you Alex.

Alex Witt: Uh, the question to you, sir, realistically speaking, what can the US do at this point?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think the United States has got to work with allies in the region to try to strengthen Fatah. Try to give Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of Fatah, the President of the Palestinian Authority greater capacity to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinian people and to improve living standards on the West Bank, to redress the grievances that they have, the problems with checkpoints and other things. I think that really it's a matter of trying to elevate the legitimacy of Fatah as opposed to Hamas.

Alex Witt: And to which governments, sir, should the US reach right out now and to what degree do you think they'll be amenable to their requests?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I think the Saudis and the Jordanians certainly want to help in this matter because they're caught up in this struggle also. I think the Egyptians also have a very important role. Egypt has to help contain the possible remilitarization or strengthening of the military in Gaza. Egypt controls the southern border of Gaza and there's no doubt now that Hamas will be attempting a further military buildup. Hamas's structure down there is designed to wage war against Israel. They fire these kassam rockets. They're not very powerful, they've got a 20-lb. warhead, but they do intimidate and terrify and drive people back. So I think it's important for Israel to work with the United States, the United States to work with the nations in the region and try to raise Fatah and contain Hamas.

Alex Witt: And what does all of this mean for the peace process with Israel because let's not forget there are Palestinian and Israeli elements that still want a two-state solution?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah. I think the peace process is on hold. I think this has to be resolved first. Perhaps it can be but there's no timeline for it and the timeline that's actually ticking goes back to an earlier segment that you just covered, Alex, and that is Iran's nuclear aspirations. Sometime in the next 12 months, that comes into play. Uh, it's going to be clear whether diplomacy worked or not. It doesn't look like it's working. The United States is not talking directly to Iran as many of us have advocated for a long time. And this is another factor that's working against the United States in trying to deal with Hamas.

Alex Witt: Alright, Retired US Army General Wesley Clark, our MSNBC analyst. Thank you very much, sir.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you Alex.

Segment 3

Alex Witt: Well this is anything but cute, let me tell you. Mideast turmoil spreading with the fight moving to the West Bank, that is where Fatah gunmen are storming into Hamas-controlled government institutions. They are taking them over by force. With me now, MSNBC analyst, Retired US Army General Wesley Clark. General, thank you for joining us yet again. And the question first off to you – is Gaza now turning into a breeding ground for terrorists? Has it always been that way?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well it's always been radicalized but uh, this is worse and uh, with Hamas there yes, there are fears that it will be a breeding ground for more radical elements in the Middle East. But, even if it isn't, what it is is a focal point for radicalizing opinion in the Middle East which works against the United States and of course it works against Israel. If Israel responds to the rocket attacks coming out of Gaza, then Israel is vilified. If Israel puts a blockade in, Israel is vilified. And if Israel enters Gaza to try to go after Hamas, Israel is vilified. So this is a big win for those who want to see further radicalization in the Middle East.

Alex Witt: General, we can't forget that all of this came about because of an election. What kind of message does this send to the broader region if the US doesn't insist that Hamas should have some major political role moving forward because they were elected freely into office?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, Alex, there's been no misunderstanding in the region that the US rhetoric on democracy was dangerous. Democracy has to spring from society. It's not about just holding votes. I mean, Saddam Hussein received 99% of the votes in Iraq. There are elections periodically in Iran. It's not about holding a ballot and going in and dropping a ballot, it's about the society – a society that has respect for diversity of opinion, some degree of pluralism, that does its policy on the basis of reason and rational discourse rather than ideologies. And so um, the rulers in many of these Middle East states are concerned. They don't want to push too fast toward democracy so they look at the election of Hamas as a validation of their concerns. It's a ‘I told you so' to the United States.

Alex Witt: General, the Roadmap for Peace, this hope to establish a two-state territory there, if it were to happen…first of all, what is your opinion on the likelihood of it happening? And were it to happen, how might that influence for the positive, the Muslim perspective on the United States?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I think that certainly the idea that you could have a Palestinian territories that would have a two-state solution – the Palestinian area and Israel, that's got to be put aside for a while because there's no unity now within the Palestinian areas. Perhaps some work could be done to strengthen Fatah, give it more legitimacy, but right now, of course, Fatah's fighting for its own survival in the West Bank going against Hamas. The problem is, of course, that Fatah doesn't know everything about Hamas. It's tried to learn a lot, but Hamas is one of these cellular organizations. It's got a military wing, it's got underground wings, it's got outside support. So it's unlikely that Fatah's going to be totally effective in the West Bank in cleaning it up. So we'll see the ramifications of this going on for a while and as we were saying earlier, all of this is in the context of the United States' engagement in Iraq and the looming crisis over Iran's nuclear capabilities.

Alex Witt: Alright, General Wesley Clark. Sir, thank you so much.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.