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General Wesley Clark on the Stephanie Miller Show
August 20, 2007
transcript by Reg NYC
Stephanie Miller: Oh, the headlines are so confusing: "Bush stresses local successes in Iraq." "Bush moves away from benchmarks in assessing Iraq." "2007 Cheney contradicts 2000 Cheney while dismissing 1994 Cheney." Hm.
(Scooby Doo sound effect)
Stephanie Miller: All so confusing. If only there was some sort of military expert of some sort that could...
(phone rings)
Stephanie Miller: WHAT? Chris who is it?
Chris: General Wesley Clark.
(phone rings again)
Stephanie Miller: No Way!
(trumpets blare)
Stephanie Miller: Good morning, General.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good morning Stephanie. How are you doing?
Stephanie Miller: I'm, I'm fine, Sir. How've you been?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I've been good.
Stephanie Miller: We are always so excited to have you on. Now, what- So, I- Is it me or are they already moving the goal posts for the September report on Iraq?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, they've consistently moved the goal posts at, at every opportunity.
Stephanie Miller: Well, what- But, but what do you, I mean, what do you make of that? There's a new poll out saying the majority, of course, of the American people - no surprise - are mistrustful of the upcoming Iraq report. Maybe that's 'cause nothing they've told us is true so far about Iraq. Correct?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But it, what is true is that it, it, it is a mess. People are being killed there. There's no easy answer to it. Simply pulling the U.S. forces out won't stop the violence in Iraq, and it, it, it won't leave the United States in a better position to respond to other threats in the region. It'll leave us in a worse position, and it will be viewed as a huge American defeat if we're just sort of jerk the chain and say, 'all you guys line up on the road and drive out.'
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That'll be bad. On the other hand, you cannot resolve this issue without working diplomatically with the nations in the region. It's not clear to me that the Bush administration has any capability whatsoever to do this or any inclination to do it, because consistently on the sidelines we're hearing those in the White House who are rattling the sabers about Iran. Iran is a problem. Iran's part of the problem in Iraq. Iran's trying to get nuclear weapons, but no point in making threats to people if you don't talk to them directly, and that's what we need to be doing.
Stephanie Miller: Well, and General as we, you know, I've said many times on this show, we're also not being honest about what's going on. Of course, we're not even mentioning that, that it's Saudi Arabians that are killing the majority of American troops. The, they're the majority of the bombers that are coming in. So, you know, why aren't they saber-rattling, rattling at our good friends Saudi Arabia?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, the, there are Saudis in there who are part of the Sunni militia and the Al Qaeda in Iraq, but there are also Iranians in there who are part of the problem and doing the training, and we're also losing people to Shia. In fact the explosively formed penetrators, the EFPs-
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -these copper slugs that are causing so much damage, that's a, that's a technology that's been brought in through Iran, not through Saudi Arabia, and that's actually the major problem that we're facing right now. What's happening is the Saudis are, are behind the scenes working officially to support the United States. They're trying to encourage the tribes, the Sunni tribes, to rally and side with the Americans instead of resisting the Americans and, and that's happening-
Stephanie Miller: Well-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -out in the West, in Anbar Province, and-
Stephanie Miller: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But of course it's not happening for the reason we want it to happen. It's not because they like Maliki and our, and the Iraqi Constitution. It's happening because they know if they don't arm themselves, they can't defend themselves.
Stephanie Miller: Well, General, this is why I think it just seems like such a mess to so many people that, you know, meanwhile, you know, we're saying that the, the Iraqi Army should be cracking down on the Shi'ite militias. In many cases they are the Shi'ite militias. They've infiltrated the Iraqi Army. It just seems like this is just this endless cycle of whack-a-mole that we're playing that, you know, I get what you're saying, that, 'Oh, it's going to be a mess if we pull out,' but I mean, wasn't the whole point of this escalation is to allow them to have political, make political progress? Well, they haven't. So, w-what do we do? What, what is the, what is the point in us staying there I guess is what I don't understand.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, the point was the President needed a strategy that got him through the election in 2008, and that's the strategy that he has. But-
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -if you set the politics of it aside, there's no way that the United States is going to be better off by quickly pulling forces out. If you look at what happened to Israel in, in 2000 when they pulled out of South Lebanon, it looked like a brilliant strategic maneuver, but what it did is it fed the forces of extremism in the region. They, they all crowed that they'd driven the Israelis out of South Lebanon. When the United States leaves Iraq, if we leave the way we're postured there right now and we leave quickly, this will be hailed as a victory by Iran, by Al Qaeda-
Stephanie Miller: Well, General-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -by all the forces that we're opposed to.
Stephanie Miller: -so, what, what, what are you, what are you proposing, then? What, what should we do? If we- do we stay there in the same numbers? And, and then what?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I, I'd like to see two brigades pulled out by Christmastime, and I'd like to see us declare we have no permanent bases in Iraq. Then, I'd like to see us begin an earnest, sincere dialog with the other nations in the region, not just about what's going on inside Iraq but what's going on in the region, and I think we need to take the lead. We're the most powerful country in that region, and we need to take the lead in bringing the elements in the region together to try to find common interests and work through them.
Stephanie Miller: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I see this as a process-
Stephanie Miller: But the problem, General, is that-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -of a year or two. This is a year or two-
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -process, and if it starts to, to gain traction diplomatically, it will be translated into political progress on the ground-
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -In Iraq-
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: - and a reduction in the violence.
Stephanie Miller: : But the problem- Right. The problem, General Clark, it seems to me is that's not going to happen while George Bush is President-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's true.
Stephanie Miller: -because you know if he was going to, you know, use diplomacy, he would've done it. So, I think that's the problem is that you know-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that's the problem.
Stephanie Miller: You go, yeah if you would've had an exit plan, if you, somebody would've listened to Dick Cheney in (laughs) 1994, who said this was going to be a complete quagmire and not worth American lives to get rid of Saddam. Why do you think that's not a bigger news story, that Dick Cheney, you know, had all this to say in 1994 about how unwise it would be to invade Iraq?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think it's, it's a great story about Dick Cheney, and the truth is though that for all that the administration has done wrong and they should be held accountable by the electorate at the polls, we're still going to be left with a Democratic administration in 2009 having to deal with this problem. It's not going to be over, and what we've got to do is we got, we got to have realistic expectations about what we can be, what can be done. What can be done is to reduce the number of troops that are on the ground, U.S. troops, and reduce the casualties we're taking. That's the key. If we could cut the casualties, then it gives us a lot more flexibility. I do think that the troops that are over there are performing well. They're, they're doing an heroic job, and I think they're making progress, but I think that their progress is held, held captive to the larger diplomatic forces in the region.
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm. Mm hm. Well, and, and there-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's the real challenge.
Stephanie Miller: And there's a story today, General, in the paper which I think confirms what we've all known, and that is that the Army is too stretched if the Iraq buildup continues, that w-we really can't continue this escalation. Can we?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, we can't. You cannot recruit the way we need to recruit in an all volunteer force while you're in the middle of a war that's going the wrong way and is increasingly unpopular. It's a very long war by American historical standards, and this war's not going to be over any time soon-
Stephanie Miller: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -according to the military officers on the ground. And I think, you know, to some extent, you do have to listen to their assessments and to the assessments of the troops. There was a brilliant editorial in the New York Times over the weekend, a letter to the, to the editor by a bunch of troops in the 101st Airborne Division, and, and they, they're just saying, 'Look, this is our personal view. This violence is going to continue a long time.'
Stephanie Miller: Yup, yup.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: 'And it's not getting better because-'
Stephanie Miller: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: '-of the political problem.' It is a political problem. We're in the middle of it. The Bush administration should held accountable, thrown out of office. They mismanaged it. But-
Stephanie Miller: What do you-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Democrats are going to have to have realistic expectations about what can be done.
Stephanie Miller: General Clark, what do you think is going to happen in September with this report? What do you think is going to be the report and the reaction to it?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's going to give some positives. Going to give some negatives. And it's going to say, 'Support us while we struggle through this.' And the real problem, Stephanie, is we keep talking about troops and we keep talking about the tactics and the surge and so forth. What we should be talking about is the strategy. Why are we not talking to Iran and Syria? Why are we not trying to build some greater security ahead of us in the region?
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm. Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's the real issue. It's strategy, not the tactics.
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm. General, if I can get your take on the whole Barack Obama thing and the 2008 race about talking about Pakistan. I-I-In your opinion, if you had actionable intelligence that Osama was in Pakistan, what would you do?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, (laughs) I'd get rid of, I'd get rid of Osama. But on the other hand, when you're President of the United States, you can't always say everything that you're going to do, and when you're running to be President of the United States, you can't always say what you intend to do. You have to leave some things ambiguous.
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm. Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So, in this case, it got a little too open.
Stephanie Miller: Yeah, I see.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But I think that, I think the point that he was making is the point that many of us have made - including Hillary Clinton -
Stephanie Miller: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -which is that the real problem has been the war on terror, and that Iraq has been a distraction from that war.
Stephanie Miller: And b-before you go, I have to get your take on Mitt Romney saying that his five sons are serving a greater cause than Iraq, getting him elected President.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (laughs) I bet he wishes he hadn't said that.
(laughter all around)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You know, I think it's a wonderful thing when young people volunteer to serve the country. I recommend it. I'm still recommending it. it's a great way to begin. It's- if we don't have good young people joining the Armed Forces, we're going to end up with an Armed Forces that even less representative-
Chris: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -of America.
Stephanie Miller: Yup.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And it will not protect our country, and that doesn't mean you only join the Armed Forces to get an education. You join the Armed Forces to serve. You join knowing there's risk. You join because it's the right thing to do if you love this country.
Stephanie Miller: Well, you have served your country so well as of course Supreme Commander of the, you know, Allied Forces in Europe, and now if you would only run for President-
Chris: Ha!
Stephanie Miller: -just think how, just think how, how much better you could- (cricket noise) Hello?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Stephanie.
Stephanie Miller: Are you calling to declare yet? Come on, General Clark.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think about it every day.
Stephanie Miller: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I do.
Chris: Ooh.
Stephanie Miller: Alright. Think harder.
(laughter all around)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Listen, one of the things that keeps me thinking is the support from you, Stephanie.
Stephanie Miller: That's nice.
Chris: Awww.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's true.
Stephanie Miller: That, and that's enough to go on, General. Alright. (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Bye.
Stephanie Miller: Thanks so much for calling us, General Wesley Clark.
Chris: Yay!
Stephanie Miller: Please come back again. There he goes.
(studio applause)
Stephanie Miller: General Clark, ooooh lord, not easily tricked.
Chris: Mm.
Stephanie Miller: I try every time.
