General Wesley Clark on the Jack Rice Show

September 21, 2007
transcript by Reg NYC

Jack Rice: In his book he writes, "Military valor can't compensate for malfeasance at the political and strategic level." If anybody would understand that, it would be this man. First in his class from West Point, he led Operation Allied Force in Kosovo. He was the Supreme Allied Commander of all NATO forces. He has the Presidential Medal of Freedom. He even ran for President. Four-Star General Wesley Clark. General, thank you for joining me.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Great to be with you, Jack.

Jack Rice: When you wrote that, "Military valor can't compensate for malfeasance at the political and strategic level," in A TIme To Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country, what did you mean?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I meant that you can't win in struggles abroad if you don't have the right strategy, if you don't have the right politics, if you don't do your work at the national level. You can't just send a bunch of troops in and say, 'You guys fight it out on the ground. It's up to you.' It's not up to them. When Dave Petreaus testified in front of Congress, he's telling it the best way he can see it. He's doing the best he can with the cards he holds in his hand. He just doesn't hold the winning cards in his hand. You can lose this conflict in the, in the Middle East and in Iraq militarily. You cannot win it militarily, and Dave Petraeus would be the first one to tell you that. And yet, this administration refuses, REFUSES to take the right kind of diplomatic course to succeed on the region.

Jack Rice: When General Petreaus was before the House, before the Senate, it almost felt as if he were another politician trying to argue why he was correct. Was that the right position to put him in, frankly, any military officer?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, yes and no. In the first place, it's perfectly alright for a General to come and testify in front of Congress and tell it like he sees it, and he's going to be grilled. And when I was the Commander in Europe, I got grilled, and there were a lot of hostile faces on the OTHER side of the bench there that I was looking up at who weren't very happy. They didn't particularly want me to succeed. They questioned whether I was succeeding, but you know, ultimately we won. Look, that's the American way. Generals testify. Generals are part of the chain of command. They're loyal to the Commander In Chief, whether he's a Democrat or Republican. And if it were any other way, you'd have a military coup in this country, and you'd be run by the military, and you wouldn't want that. And it'll never happen in American history, because we're not that country. BUT this President, George W. Bush, has, he's been hiding behind his Generals. You know how he always says, "Well, I do whatever the Generals tell me." Well, he doesn't, but he says it, because he thinks it gives him political insulation. The truth is that Generals don't make the policy. The policy comes from the President. He is, by his own words, 'The Decider'. So, why's he hiding behind Dave Petreaus, Dave Petreaus can't do the, the diplomacy with Iran. It's not Dave Petreaus that says we're going to isolate Iran. It's not Dave Petreaus who's worried about nuclear weapons in Iran. And it's not Dave Petreaus who worries about solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Those are all problems that are on the, should be on the desk of George W. Bush, the Commander In Chief and the President of the United States.

Jack Rice: Four-Star General Wesley Clark is my guest. Again, General, take me inside the Pentagon now. Y-you've served obviously under Republican and Democratic Presidents.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right.

Jack Rice: And when things go the way they are right now, how does that play, so to speak and dare I say it that way, within the Pentagon within the professional staff where you were for decades?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you do what you can do. I mean, you give your advice. You don't have the full knowledge of all the factors that go into decision making. The President or his representatives come into the room in the, in the, in the, in the West Wing situation room of the White House where the ultimate decisions tend to get made, and you lay out the options. They argue about them, ask some questions and so forth. And usually, you go away and the White House announces a decision. And the rest of the troops do the best they can. You carry out the decisions loyally. You don't talk. You don't gossip. You don't run out to the press and whisper about what happened in the meeting. That's not in the military code of ethics. You know better than to do that. So, you're loyal to the chain of command, and you hope that it works, and you hope that they're smart. This chain of command, this White House has not been smart. They've abused our Armed Forces. They're trying to use them up over there, I guess, because they're fighting against even giving our Armed Forces a reasonable chance to recover before they send them back in.

Jack Rice: So, who's the voice for them. The problem that I, I will see at least in sort of the heartland of America is that, is that if you have somebody who's going against the policy of whatever the White House is saying, and this White House or any White House, it becomes a political question rather than something, well, better than that.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it's always a political question. I mean, politics is how we get things made. The, the, the framers of the Constitution knew this and that's why they set up three branches of government. The Executive Branch, the President is the Commander In Chief. He employs the Armed Forces. The Congress, they are the people's voice. They raise and maintain the army. That's in the Constitution Article II, if I recall correctly, to raise and maintain an army, the power of Congress. So, if the Congress says 'You're using up the army. You need to give them more rest. If you want more money, come and see us.' That's the power of Congress. This President goes to the Congress for money, but he doesn't listen to the Congress when they say, 'You're overusing the army.'

Jack Rice: You have this amazing resume, and it, and it lists- and I started out our conversation talking about all the things that you have: Presidential Medal of Freedom, Four-Star General, first in your class, Operation Allied Force into Kosovo, a-all sorts of things, and yet, does it ever surprise you. You're this, you're this kid from Arkansas. I mean, take me back to that. What does that do to the decisions that, not just that you make now, but the decisions that you made when you were in all of these high-faluten, if I can call it that, positions?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it's who I am. I mean, I am just a kid from Arkansas. I was a, a poor kid. My father died when I was three years old in Chicago and my mother- He was a, he was a, he was Jewish and he'd worked for the city. He didn't really have any money, and my mother wasn't Jewish. And so, she took us and we went back to Arkansas. We moved in with her parents. My grandfather, her father, he worked in a, in a lumber mill. He was a sawyer basically. He repaired the saws for Mr. Dierks, and my grandmother, she didn't work. And they'd had five kids. They both had third or fourth grade educations. Granddad read with moving his finger under the line of words and moving his lips as he read, and- But, I, I, I loved, I loved my family. My mother remarried. Th-that's who I am, and all of the high-faluten stuff doesn't change who you are. But what America did was it gave me an opportunity to- I had a dream of leaving Arkansas and pursuing leadership and public service. And I got to live that dream in this great country, and I love this country. And I wrote the book because I want other people to love this country. I want other young people to understand that they've got to have courage enough to take the steps to realize their dreams.

Jack Rice: General Clark, when you look at the country, when you look at what's going on across the country itself, do you think about the people in power, the people in Washington, the people in government and politics, or do think about the people you just mentioned to me just a couple of minutes ago, about your grandparents, about your mom, even about yourself, this kid from Arkansas?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I think about ordinary people. I mean, I think about people who grew up just like I did and, and who didn't have the opportunities that, that I had or the natural gifts that I had and whatever. They weren't lucky. A lot of it's luck in life, and it shouldn't be, but it is. You say your prayers, and you hope you'll be lucky, because a lot of things could've gone the other way, and it wouldn't've been like this. And I think about those people, and I say, you know, we just got to make sure that that pathway to the American dream is still open for every American child who has the courage to dream, and, and to, and to seize that dream.

Jack Rice: Does it surprise you? I mean, I listen to you describe your, your grandparents' third grade educations. I mean, by all rights, you should be working in a gas station or a bowling- not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's where you should've been. Do you ever sit back and think, 'I-I'm that guy. I am not this guy, the people that people keep calling General and everything else and Presidential candidate? In your head, down deep, when no one else is watching, do you ever think, I'm, I'm suppose to be that guy?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, a lot of people have this kind of experience in America. It's not, (laughs) it's not so unique. I mean, a lot of really wonderful people have come from nothing, and that's the GREAT thing about America. You know, when you travel abroad, you don't find that. I, I deal with friends in the Middle East and Europe and Asia, and a lot of them have really distinguished families and they can go back. A man, I was with a guy last week and he showed me how his, his wife's grandparents had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Chinese railroad bonds, 1911, and of course they weren't worth anything today. And I was thinking, my grandparents in 1911, they couldn't've bought 100 dollars worth of Chinese railroad bonds. They never owned a car. They never had a, they never had a house. They were just poor people who tried to live a good life, but they, they were lucky enough to be in America, where their children and their grandchildren could have the opportunities to be all the could be. That's what we have to keep open for every American.

Jack Rice: Is it that open now?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it is open, but I think it's also at risk. It's at risk when public education doesn't receive the priority and the attention it should and people say, 'Well, you know, let them go to private education so they can, you know, let them, if they want to pay for it, they can get a better education.' It's at risk when we don't do everything we can to get healthcare to ordinary kids. One of the things I was really grateful for, my mother really watched my health. I, of course, I hated to go to the dentist, and I remember going to the dentist when I was four years old, getting my teeth drilled and the dentist saying, "Sit up, kid, and be a man and take this." And this was the sort of the days pre-novicain-

Jack Rice: (laughs)

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: and that old slow drill grinding at your mouth and this great big man with his huge hand on my jaw. And- (laughs)

Jack Rice: That was just the beginning of a lot of that, huh?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (laughing) The beginning of a lot of pain, but, but, you know, I was lucky, and not every child is that lucky. There's still kids in America that don't ever see a dentist. There's kids that don't get healthcare. there's children that don't have adequate nutrition. There are children aren't as lucky as to have as strong as- a strong a mother as I had. And, and I think that, you know, we've got to do everything we can, because there's an enormous reservoir of talent in mankind. And for the good of everybody, you have to reach out and to young people and give them a chance to develop their talents. You just never know where the next Einstein's going to be or the next George Washington or the next Bill Clinton. And if you have a system that closes off those opportunities, then god help us. Fortunately, I mean, one of the reasons we're the greatest country in the world is because we do give everyone a chance to develop, and we got to make sure that door stays open.

Jack Rice: A Time To Lead is the name of the book. General Wesley Clark is my guest. General, do you remember a time when all of a sudden you realized, 'You know what? I'm not going to stay in Arkansas. I'm not going to be here like my par- like my mother, like my grandparents. I'm going to do something greater.' Was there one moment, not the greatest, the biggest thing ever, but the one moment where you thought, 'My gosh, I'm actually going to be able to do something here'?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think I always wanted to do that. I always was drawn to national service and to leadership. I was worried about the threats to America. I remember I was six years old, and I remember when during the Korean War, the MIGs were attacking our Saber jets. And I was running around in the street and you could hear people on the radio were talking about, you know, so many jets shot down in MIG alley. And I'm running around talking to other kids in the neighborhood, and, and, and they're explaining- I couldn't understand why airplanes were in an alley, and they're trying to explain to me what MIG alley was. But I've always had this sense of, of national security and wanting to help protect the country. I remember when the, the kid up the street who was a lot older than me - he was 20 years old - and he came back from the Korean War. And I was seven, and they said, "You can't talk to him. He's shell-shocked. All- He just, he just keeps talking about the Chinese just, they just keep coming over the hill. They just keep coming over the hill." I remember when we did the duck and cover drills when we were threatened with Soviet attack during the 1950s, and everybody rushed out to try to get air raid shelters and stockpile water and things. That was the formative period of growing up, and I got to live that life of being part of the force that protects America.

Jack Rice: General, when I was a kid, I remember sitting in front of a black and white television set watching soldiers fight in Vietnam, seeing the tally marks of the number of American soldiers killed, the number of Vietcong killed, and I imagined that when I grew up, I would be fighting in the jungles. I really did. I also remember the duck and cover, right, you know, what that meant from the Cold War. Do kids today think about this very same thing?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, but they think about terrorism today. Now, here's the difference: During the Cold War, America faced up to its responsibilities. President Eisenhower was a strong leader. He organized the Armed Forces, and we deterred, but we did not fight, wars, not against the Soviet Union. Under terrorism, we've made the mistake of launching this war in Iraq, and we're sort of involved in what looks, must look like to young people, an endless series of conflicts with a volunteer force. And geez, they don't want to be in the military, and it's okay if somebody wants to do it but it's not for me. I think we need to take a step back and think about the America that, that we grew up in, a previous generation. It was an America where everyone felt an obligation to serve. It was an America which was slow to anger, powerful but slow to use force, and used force only as a last resort. That was an America that, that made international law and believed in it and worked to see it succeed, as opposed to an America that that comes across to the rest of the world as a bully that doesn't believe in international law, doesn't care about international law, wants its soldiers exempted from international law. For us to maintain our power, we need to enhance the attributes that others want to see in us, which is our grandeur, our greatness, our ability to use law and persuasion first and force only as a last resort. And we need to continue to build that spirit of willing service to the country, the volunteer commitment of time and energy to America.

Jack Rice: In 2004-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Those are lessons I wanted to convey in the book.

Jack Rice: I-in 2004- and again, y-you're writing about this in A Time To Lead: For Duty, Honor And Country, again Four-Star General Wesley Clark. In 2004, you ran for President. Why didn't you run again?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because when I looked at the preconditions- I, I, I ran. I loved it. I won Oklahoma. I, I thought we ran a pretty good campaign considering we started with nothing. It was- (laughs) I joked it was like trying to cross the Atlantic by jumping off the pier in New York City in the Hudson River with two logs and trying to assemble a boat as you drifted out to sea. But when I looked at it and I looked at what it takes to succeed and I thought about asking people for money and so forth, I couldn't meet the preconditions.

I had people the last time who gave up their homes. They gave up their jobs. They gave up their year. They, they quit college. They left their families. They worked for me in, steadily in New Hampshire and all over the country. And when I had to pull out of the race in February of 2004, when there was simply no more money left, I mean, they were devastated. They cried. I mean, I had a passionate commitment that was unlike anything that I ever understood was in politics. And I didn't want to go through that unless I thought I could meet certain preconditions. I couldn't meet those preconditions. And anyway, we have another candidate in this race who's extraordinarily well qualified. She is experienced. She's spent her life learning about elective office. The same way I spent my life learning about strategy and policy, she's learned about how to represent people. She's a qualified lawyer. She's a Senator. She's been there in the tough times. She's got enormous character. She does her homework. She'll be a great Commander In Chief and a great President, and that's why I endorsed Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Jack Rice: I know, you just endorsed her this last Saturday.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right.

Jack Rice: Tell me if she were to win, would you accept the position of Secretary of Defense?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I haven't thought anything about that. I did it because, I endorsed her because it was the right thing to do and there were so many people still supporting me that I wanted to do what I could to get the right leadership in place in the country.

Jack Rice: Will you go out on the campaign trail with her?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I hope, I hope I will. I hope I'll still be able to have a voice and, and, and, and help the country as best I can.

Jack Rice: General Wesley Clark, thank you so much, Sir.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you. Great to be with you.

Jack Rice: The name of the book A Time To Lead: For Duty, Honor And Country.