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General Wesley Clark on "We the People with David Sears on CRN Digital Radio
October 26, 2007
David Sears: And folks today, you know, I am, I am blessed to have a job in this country where I can speak to people that I think can provide a lot of, you know, introspective-type look at our country. I talk to average Americans, people that are leaders, people that do a lot of different things in our country, whether it's a firefighter battling fires out here in California or whether it's a politician. And today I have a very unique opportunity. I am very, very, very happy to present to our listening audience today a gentleman who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, and I'm going to first say that based on the fact that three things: Here's a man who has served this country greatly in our military, and I will never, ever, ever, ever not thank a military for not serving our nation. It's one of the greatest things anybody can do, and if you've not had that opportunity, if you've not served for whatever reason, when you meet a military man and you understand what he has done, how he has served this great country of ours, you will understand a, a, a unique perspective about an American that I think goes to the spirit of who we are. To serve this country, to be able to be a part of this country and then beyond that, just not only serving militarily, come to the forefront and be willing to step up into the political arena. Who I'm talking about today is General Wesley Clark. There are many, many opportunities to talk to a lot of people across this country, but very rarely do we get them sometimes right here in our own studios and I want to welcome right now General Wesley Clark to our studio here at CRN Talk Radio. General.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, thank you. It's great to be with you here today.
David Sears: Thank you for coming in. We appreciate you being out here on the West Coast, and especially the fact that you've come to give us some time to talk about your book.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm honored to talk about it with you.
David Sears: Well, I, I, I'm glad to have you here. I'm just busting a gut. I'm, I'm sorry. I'm a- Wesley and I were talking, or General Clark and I were talking just a moment ago, and I was trying to give him a little bit of head up about a few things, but we, I try and keep things real as we can on air. My mom and dad live in Memphis, Tennessee. I know Little Rock pretty darn well. Grew up-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I guess you do if you're from Memphis.
David Sears: (laughs) Grew up a good portion of my life out there-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
David Sears: -and have been to Little Rock a lot and that area. And here's the gentleman who has written a magnificent book, and I'm going to say this word 'amazing'. My wife who gives me a lot of trouble about the way I describe some books. This is an amazing book. General Clark has written a book A Time To Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country, and this book is probably, General Clark, on of the most, I-I would like to call it easily readable, understandable and you get it real quickly books (music comes in) I've read in a long time. Now, the music you're hearing in you ear is our one minute break before-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Uh huh.
David Sears: -our first break. Sorry about that, but I wanted to get the introduction in and wanted to say I love this book.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
David Sears: This is a good readable book. It's easy to read. It's easy to understand and it's got a lot in it. Now, I don't agree with everything General, you know, Clark says-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I hope we can get into that.
David Sears: BUT, but we'll get into it. We're going to get into it. But the great thing is leadership in this country provides us lots of opportunities to insight in what they do, and this is a great book. I want you to read this book, A TIme To Lead: Duty, Honor and Country, Wesley K. Clark. And we're going to be right back in a few minutes with, with Wesley Clark, General Clark, to talk about this book, get into aspects of it. Wesley, we're glad to have you here, Sir. Anything you want to say right before we go to break.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm anxious to talk about the book, and I'm delighted to, and we're going to have some questions from your-
David Sears: Yep.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -listeners.
David Sears: We're going to have a few listeners call in.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And it's going to be fun.
David Sears: Alright. We'll do that. We'll be right back in just a moment. Stay-
(cuts)
David Sears: Yeah, and I love the fact you do that.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, when you get - grandkids are better than kids-
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -because grandkids, you don't have to worry about it. It's up to the parents.
David Sears: That's right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The parents are the enemy.
David Sears: Yeah. (laughs) They are.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And, and, and, and the grandkids are, you team up with your grandkids-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and you entertain them and, and give them memories and have fun with them, and that's what we do.
David Sears: And you've got two grandkids.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I've got two little boys.
David Sears: Little boys.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: One's three and a half, the other's two.
David Sears: God bless you. That's great. Let's talk about the book, the reason we're here.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Alright.
David Sears: The reason you're here is this great book. I love this book.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, thank you.
David Sears: This is an easy to read. It's a good book to get a, a perspective on a leader of our country. Why'd you write the book? I-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I wanted to talk about the country-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and I wanted to talk about leadership. And I think when you look at where we are today in America, we've got a real choice to make in the 2008 election.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We've got to choose who we are as a nation.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There are really two sides to the issue. Well, there's many sides to it. There's many Americas, but basically there's, there's two. There's one side that says, you know, 'We were attacked on 9/11.'
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: 'There's a lot of people out there that want to hurt us. We've got a lot to be-'
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: '-concerned about. We better toughen things up. We got to kick their you-know-what. We got to not let anybody threaten this country again. We'll build those walls up. We'll keep those people that look different from us and think di- keep 'em out of here.'
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: 'This is our country.' You know, that, that's one America. The other one is-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -an America of knowing who we are historically. We're a nation of immigrants. We all came here from somewhere else-
David Sears: Absolutely.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -except for a few Native Americans. And-
David Sears: Absolutely.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: America's great strength is we absorb. There's something about this culture. People can come here from all over the world. They can come from cultures in which they weren't safe, in which they fought their neighbors. But yet they come here and everything changes. This is a land of-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -incredible opportunity.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I think this side of it, the side of American confidence, a nation that doesn't build walls but builds bridges, a nation that's proud of its heritage and looks to the future to lead all of mankind, not to protect what we have, but to, to give it out to others and-
David Sears: Celebrate it.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -help others see what it is that-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -they can have for themselves. That's the nation we are.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I want to be part of that debate and that's why I wrote the book.
David Sears: Well, let's, let's get into the book, because there's several aspects of this book I love. One of the things I like, I like the way you start off the book, because you talk about-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (laughing) You mean getting shot.
David Sears: Yeah, getting shot. You know, I hate that. No, I didn't like the fact that you got shot. I'm not saying I like that. The fact that you started out the book from a sense of who you really are. You're a military man.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's right.
David Sears: You come from 30-something years-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah, 38 years.
David Sears: -of serving-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
David Sears: -this country in roles that, you know, your average American just doesn't get a chance to understand. I mean, you were Supreme Commander Allied Forces, NATO-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
David Sears: -in Europe. You were in Vietnam. I mean, you go back and forth through your career. I don't know too many Four-Star Generals, Sir. So, the first and foremost part is that's an achievement unto itself, and again I want to thank you for your service to our great country.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I thank you for that. No, that's what it is. I, basically, I'm a, I'm somebody who saw a threat to America. I wanted to serve the country and help us deal with the threat. I went to West Point to do it.
David Sears: Why did you do that from Arkansas? You were in Arkansas. You're growing up as a kid. You saw lots of different things.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Just a patriotic part of the country. I mean, you know. You were from Memphis, I mean.
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And people my age almost everybody's father had been in the military and-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -when I was a kid, everybody had a military obligation anyway. And I remember playing on the street and- during the Korean War, and we were worried-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -about the Chinese communists. And-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I remember the times when people would say, 'Well, the, we've got an H-bomb and the Soviets only have an A-bomb, and we should attack.' And there-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -it was, were a lot less things to distract young people then, I guess-
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -than there are today. And so-
David Sears: Yes, yes.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -you've got caught up in your country along-
David Sears: Yes.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -with sports. In, in Arkansas, we followed the St. Louis Cardinals. I don't know what you did in Memphis, but we didn't have any. I mean,-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -we followed the University of Arkansas team. Pro sports wasn't as big. There weren't any-
David Sears: Yeah, Razorbacks.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
David Sears: Uh-huh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There weren't any-
David Sears:: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -pro teams around, and-
David Sears: Yeah. Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We could listen to Stan Musial and the St. Louis Cardinals on the radio. That was about it, and-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -you were lucky if, if, if you had a father who would take you to St. Louis. Some of my friends did. I never got there to see a-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -a Cardinals game. But it was, it was the, a time where America was under threat and patriotic and responded, and I was part of that response, and I was proud to be an American.
David Sears: Was there, was there anything, General Clark, that, that made you want to get into the military. I mean, think about again, you came from humble backgrounds in Arkansas. Was there a background. I didn't see it in the book, and I just didn't know if there's like a relative-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No.
David Sears: -or somebody who said, "You know what?"
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, my, my real father had been in the Navy in World War I. He was a commissioned officer in the Navy for one year.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He never got to sea, and it was at the end of World War I, but I had a picture of him in, in a Naval uniform. I was very proud of that. But no, there wasn't anything more than that. My, my uncle had fought as a Marine at Okinawa.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And, but all up and down the street there were, there were fathers who had been in the service.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I mean, it was, it was the spirit of public service that motivated the community and you could feel it.
David Sears: Do you still think we have that today?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Not to the same extent. I think-
David Sears: Yeah, I would agree with you.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -the military is, people are proud of the military, but, but they don't know it.
David Sears: Yeah. Yes.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's remote.
David Sears: Uh-huh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's like, 'Well, that's, uh, really great.' I, I-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I came back from Vietnam. I remember it was the spring of 1970. I was trying to recover from wounds. I was living with my wife's parents in their apartment in Brooklyn. And my wife's little sister who a Senior in high school there-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -in, in New York City, she said, "Well, I was-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: "-I was defending Wes today, and some of the people were picking on him and saying he was just a soldier and stuff, but I said, 'If that's his thing, that's his thing.' "
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I'm thinking to myself, 'Well, yeah but,' I mean-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that's the way it is for a lot of people today.
David Sears: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: If the military's your thing, well that's great. But-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -it wasn't my thing. It was, it was about the country. It wasn't about me.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It wasn't like, well some people want to be painters, some people want to go be in the military.
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It wasn't like that. This is, for me, it was like, there might have been other things I was- I was always interested
David Sears: Uh-huh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -in science.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I was interested in engineering.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But to me there was always a, a call of duty-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that came first. And I remember reading about the, the way the Soviet Union crushed the Hungarian Revolution in 1956.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And the torture that was inflicted on those people, and I thought, 'God, I mean, what a horrible, what a horrible nation it is that would torture people like that,' and how I was so proud to be an American. 'We would never do something like that.'
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: 'And we have to fight and protect the world from those kinds of monsters.
David Sears: Mm hm. Well, you, you, you've done that now. You've been to 'Nam. you served. You were gravely wounded. You came back, and then you went on to have a pretty distinguished career. And, and where we're leading to also in this is you were involved in, in probably one of the most difficult, as I see, international political and military times with your leadership of NATO in Europe at that point in time.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, it was a strange time in Europe, because on the one hand, we had won the Cold War, but on the other hand people then began to question, 'Well, why do we have NATO?'
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And 'What's our strategy?' and 'Where are we going?' And suddenly we found ourselves trying to stop a war in Europe that was a very savage'
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was a, it was a war. It wasn't a civil war. It was a war.
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was an invasion of one country by another, and it had generated millions of refugees. And, and 19 nations had to come together and stay together to stop it, and we did.
David Sears: Well, I, I want to get into that, because I think that is in my opinion, I think that is a very specific element of your background that has led you to the leadership today - dealing with lots of different nations, leading with dot- lots of different leaders, to have to solve that kind of problem. So, we're going to get back to that in just a moment. Folks, Wesley Clark here on CRN Digital Talk, A Time To Lead, this is a great book. We'll be right back in just a moment.
(break)
David Sears: Welcome back to the program. Welcome back to the show. My name's Dave Sears here, "We the People". We the people of this great country and this great nation, we have the honor of speaking with a gentleman who has served our country greatly, General Wesley Clark is in the studio with me. And I, I know there are a lot of times that accolades are paid on people, and, and I don't do that lightly. I do it because I revere people that have served our country, people that I feel are willing to step up to the plate politically in a very difficult time. It is not easy being a politician. Is it?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you take a lot of abuse, but it's- the thing, I guess the biggest thing about it that y-you become labeled and-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -as a, as a member of a party. I never considered myself, I was never a member of a party, and I never even-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -understood what that was like.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I mean I saw Democrats. I saw Republicans. I never thought about it. I mean, I was a military guy. Why be in a party, because you're, you serve the Commander-in-Chief?
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But then you realize how much abuse gets directed (laughs) at people in politics, and our-
David Sears:: Do, do you think, hold on, speaking of abuse, do you think a lot of that is derived from the media? Do you think the media drives that or is it, is it just political stuff going on?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think that it's the nature of, of, of, I think it's the nature-
David Sears: Of politics.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -of politics itself.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's been that way for a long time. (laughs) If you-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I was reading a book on Cicero and they were talking about in the, in, in, in the Roman Empire,-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -if a General went into politics, he was quickly, his reputation was quickly attacked and was demolished and-
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because it's just the nature of it. You, you, you've got- politics is win or lose.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's a binary outcome. When you get into one of these elections, it's not something you can dribble on. It's not like, 'Hey, let's make this a win-win discussion.' This is no win-win discussion in politics.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And when you're running for the Presidency, you're playing for the most powerful office on earth.
David Sears: Why did you choose to run for President? I, I, I'm going off-topic here, because there are so many things I wanted to talk to you about.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well because-
David Sears: Why did you choose in 2003.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I actually, I was (chuckles) I was drafted. I like it.
David Sears: (laughs) You were drafted.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I was drafted.
David Sears: Okay.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I began to speak out against the war when I realized- It took me a long time to speak out against it. I'm, I, I'm, I tend to be very loyal by nature, and I was loyal to the military institution.
David Sears: That's the nature of a military man. You don't-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah, and um-
David Sears: -criticize your commander.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You know.
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And it was a very tough thing to do, but-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I began to be told by people on the inside that, that the reasons were kind of phony, that the decision had already been made, that there were other countries they were going to attack in addition to Iraq-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that this was a, a, a five-year campaign plan to take out seven states and, and the administration wasn't leveling with the American people. I sort of looked at it as a test of my judgement, and I was asked to write an op-ed, an opinion piece for the Times of London. My wife said, "Oh God, please don't do this." This is the summer of 2002.
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: She says, "I know-"
David Sears: Gert was saying, "Don't do it." (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: She says, "I know what you're going to do. You're going to say something. They're going to get mad at you."
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: "It's going to hurt your business efforts."
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: "Don't, please don't do this." Well, so, you know, I-I've just always been the, I've always had that contrary nature that if-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that if somebody asked me, I, I-I, that's the duty, honor, country piece. I mean, I just sort of-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -stand up and take it. You know?
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So, I wrote the piece, and you know, I said that, yes, it's, you know, Saddam is a threat. There's no doubt about it, but he's not an imminent threat.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He's not a going to war type of threat-
David Sears: Gotcha.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -at this point.
David Sears: Gotcha.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I tried to put the brakes on, but I knew I was going against an administration that was hellbent to go to war no matter what. No matter what, they wanted to go to war-
David Sears: What, why do you think-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -with Iraq.
David Sears: Why did they want to do that? Why did Bush want to do that.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They saw it as a way of - two things, or maybe five or ten things.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: This was part of a strategy of cleaning up states that were opponents of the United States that Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney, they hatched this idea after the Gulf War. They ran it by Brent Scowcroft and General, and, and first Sec- first President George Bush in '91, '92, and it was rejected. And then when President Bush was defeated for re-election by President Clinton the idea died.
David Sears: Mm hm. Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But Wolfowitz kept it alive.
David Sears: And that's when you came into play with-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
David Sears: -with Clinton. Right?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But that's, but Wolfowitz kept it alive. I'd been in Wolfowitz's office in '91. He told me the idea.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And then the same thing surfaced after 9/11. 9/11 was a pretext to bring this back in, but I mean, you could say, 'Well, it was weapons of mass destruction.' It wasn't.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You could say, 'Well, it was to make Middle East safe for democracy.' Well, not really. It was really-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -to get rid of governments that didn't like us and that we didn't like.
(music comes in)
David Sears: Do you,-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And-
David Sears: -do you think that there is an imminent threat from radical Islamic people in this world to this country at this point in time?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think there are maybe, I don't know, 20 thousand, 50 thousand people out there who really want to hurt Americans.
David Sears: Okay.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There's no doubt about it. It's not the threat, it's not an existential threat. For it to be an existential-
David Sears: You don't think it's at the level of the threat that has been-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely not. Absol-
David Sears: -qualified.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think it's the level of the threat that we faced for example (chuckles) with the Soviet Union.
David Sears: Well, that's true. (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And yet, I mean-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -people have used this.
David Sears: Uh-huh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: This is a, this is for political partisan purposes it's an ideal threat, because it's always there. You never know when it's going to-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -come back at you. You can never eliminate it. There's no end to it, and you can always- It's like the bogeyman.
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You know, it's like what you tell your kids, 'You better be good or-
David Sears: The-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: '-he's going to come get you!'
David Sears: Boogeyman's going to get you.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's right.
David Sears: Yeah there, Bogey or Boogey? We'll be right back. Stay with us, folks, General Wesley Clark in the studio with us here at CRN Digital Talk. We'll be right back.
(break)
David Sears: Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the program. I'm your host, Dave Sears, and this is "We the People," a place where we the people of this great nation of ours have opportunities like this to talk to a great American. General Wesley Clark is in studio with me, and we're talking about his book, A Time to Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country. And we were just talking about various issues con-concerning the book, different things about politics, and there's so much to cover. And I was just talking to General Clark off the, off the microphone for a second about the fact that there's so much in here.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I know.
David Sears: I wish I had three hours with you to talk about this. I mean, there's so many great things in here - NATO, this, that and the other. But I have a caller on the line.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Okay.
David Sears: And I told you who this caller was. It's a friend of mine, is calling from the East Coast. Susan Kennedy, Dr.- Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy, are you on the line?
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Thank you. General, first thank you for being a leader we can trust, that I trust. I appreciate that.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, thank you.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: In your book, you talk about, in Haiti, that despite really valiant efforts by our forces to be both soldiers and police, that the society was so broken that we just couldn't heal it.
David Sears: That's a good point.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Talking about the Middle East, we have centuries of history of brother fighting brother and a very complex society. Do you feel that that is a society that our presence can heal and what would that take?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, there's many societies in the Middle East.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And there's a lot of variety. There's I think, you know, we're, we're in it now. We're in Iraq. I wouldn't've gone there, but the fact is that we're there. And we're going to try to, I think we have to try to make the best of it, because the consequences of just jerking everybody out are unacceptable. We, we still have interests there. We've got nations that rely on us. We've got allies. We've got economic interests. We've got the American reputation worldwide to think about. And so, we're not going to just-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -pack up the troops and go home.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But what can we do, and how do, how do we do it?
Rev. Dr. Kennedy: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that you have to have a way of working with local people on a basis of respect. It's one of the things I tried to emphasize in the book is that people-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -can respect each other even if they don't disagree. I mean, it starts in your own home. You-
David Sears: Yeah, it certainly does.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -end up, most, most of us have-
David Sears: Sure.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -disagreements with our parents. We still love them and respect them, and-
David Sears: Or our kids.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -I think, I think, you know, you can't just have, l-live in a world where everybody agrees with you on everything.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And if you can treat people with respect, I think it goes a long way to opening the possibility for understanding their perspectives. Most people have, at least when they become leaders of nations, they have some specific interests in mind. They're not irrational.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They may be irrational, behaving irrationally by your standards, but by their own standards there's some logic to it. You have to try to understand what those, what that logic is and how they think. And if you do that and I think if we do that in this region and we have dialog with people we disagree with there, there's a chance of helping to patch up some of the quarrels and give the nation a chance. One of the things I learned in the Balkans, Susan, was I was with Richard Holbrooke over there. We were trying to bring peace and-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -I was railing against Milosevic. I considered him a really terrible guy-
David Sears: Mm hm, mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And, but, but as Holbrooke said-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: You weren't alone there.
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But as, but as, as, as Richard Holbrooke said, he said, "Look, if you can just stop people from killing each other, then let them argue." He says,-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: "People have always, are always going to have disagreements. There'll always be different points of view, and anyway diplomats love it."
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's what diplomats get paid to do. They like to try to work those- as long as people aren't killing each other.
David Sears: Well, General, how do, how do we solve part of this Middle East problem. I mean, we're in Iraq, and you just said, we're, we're in there. We've already gone in. You would not have gone in had you been leading this.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, because I think that there are a lot of better things we could've done with our resources and our prestige-
David Sears: Okay.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and I would've gone directly after Osama Bin Laden. I would've worked to change the conditions.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I would've built and brought nations together. And then I'd be focusing on America at home, because I think our greatest actual challenge is how we compete in a global environment, a globalist environment in which many of the traditional advantages of America are, are gone. I mean, our technology's out there-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -all over the world, and-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -we're dependent on foreign trade and in foreign investment, just as we-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -engage in it abroad. The two oceans don't protect us the same way anymore.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I know this is a hard thing for most of us in America to understand, but when you travel abroad you realize, there's a lot of countries out there that are doing really well.
David Sears: Yeah, there are.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And they got things-
David Sears: Yeah, there are.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that we don't have. One of my friends came back from China, and he'd been doing infrastructure funding in China for a couple of months over there meeting with the Chinese. He came back.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He landed at Kennedy airport-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -in New York City. He said, "My God, I mean, after going through six or seven Chinese airports, I'm back here in the United States, and this looks like a third world country. It's- we don't realize it-
David Sears: Good gosh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -but-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -the way others have invested-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and over the last fifty years, we haven't in our infrastructure. Our interstate highway system's-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -getting old.
David Sears: Yeah it is.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's overwhelmed.
David Sears: Yeah. Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We always talk about high-speed rail, and yet when it comes right down to it and-
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -magnetic levitation trains and so forth. Other nations have it. We don't. We don't have a train
David Sears: I've been complaining about that-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No.
David Sears: -for a long time. (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's- these are things we could have.
David Sears: Yeah. Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I'd like to see us put emphasis on education and healthcare. It's about human beings and living up to their potential.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's what we need to be focusing on. That 800 billion dollars that we've spent on Iraq was a tragic misuse of America's precious resources, not to mention the 4 thousand-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who've died.
David Sears: Mm hm. Let me ask you-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: I, I'm-
David Sears: Susan, it's down the line for se- Hold on, Susan. Stay with me a second. I want to ask you a question. What do you think about the United Nations? What would you do with the United Nations today?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you know, it was our idea. (chuckles)
David Sears: Right, yeah, it was. Yeah, we-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
David Sears: -we created it. We put it together.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I think it was, it was the right idea.
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There are problems that no single nation can handle.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We're, we're not able to live in a, in a jungle in which we simply build a, a strong corral around America, arm ourselves with swords, spears and laser ray guns and-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and whack away at anybody who dares come into our terrain.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's, that's not the way the world is.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So, there are many, many problems - problems of war and peace, problems of human rights, problems of disease and sickness, epidemic, problems of global warming and climate change, problems of international economic development and poverty-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that have to be worked by groups of nations. That's what the United Nations needs to do, and it has to be done-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -with American leadership.
David Sears: Do you, do you feel that your experience over being, you know, our Supreme Allied Commander and NATO gave you some of that insight to allow you to work with so many different countries? Because again you were representing the United States, and you got a lot of people you were working with over there, in a very difficult time.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I was very proud to represent the United States, but I always approached it by trying to understand the other person's point of view too. And-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -one of the things I was, one of the pieces of advice I was given when I took over, he said, "Look, you know, you're going to have to work very closely with the NATO Secretary General, and you've got to keep him on your side." And that was a man named Javier Solana, who was a Spanish diplomat, and through him I learned a lot. He was a Fulbright Scholar, who'd had a physics degree from the University of Virginia.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And he was a very wise man. And he always worked with me, and I tried my best to understand other people's perspectives and reasoning. That's the key.
(music comes in)
David Sears: I agree with you. I think it is the key, and that's what we have to do more of in this great country of ours. We'll be right back with General Wesley Clark.
(break)
David Sears: Welcome back to the program. I'm your host, Dave Sears. "We the People," a place where you get a chance, you and I, everyday average Americans to sound off, talk to and think about what effects our lives. I have General Wesley Clark in studio with me. We're talking about his great book, and I mean it folks. And some of the folks have heard me talk about my particular persuasions on this, that and the other. I'm not- I, I consider myself a statesman, not a Republican or a Democrat. I like to think about the individual. A TIme To Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country and I read this book two times, and I'm very honored to have-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, goodness.
David Sears: Well, I wanted to make sure I understood my facts-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (laughs)
David Sears: -because, you know, you can read through something, as you well know-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I know.
David Sears: -and a lot of times you may miss a couple of points. We have a caller on line, Susan, Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy a friend of mine from the East Coast, but she wanted to ask one more question before we-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Yeah. Thanks so much.
David Sear: -let her go. So, go ahead, Susan.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Thanks so much, General Clark. Relative somewhat to the Powell Doctrine, what conditions do believe should be in place before we do commit troops to armed combat?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, basically-
David Sears: Great question. Whoa.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -first of all, you should only use war as a last resort. for a lot of different reasons.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: God bless you. Please run again.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But-
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But that, that's the primary thing, but if you're going to commit the country to war, then you must succeed. You must not go halfway. You can't believe that a nation that's as great as the United States can go to war and lose. (chuckle) You can't-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Well, we made the commitment sending them in.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You can't-
David Sears: Hold on, hold on. In that regard-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You can't let us lose-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -when you go.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So, this is what, you, you, this is-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I-I, I-I sort of worked this out when I was a captain at the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College. I wrote it up in the thesis. I called it 'coercive diplomacy' and, and I end up, ended up 25 years later (chuckles) as the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO using-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Ha!
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -this idea.
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And we ran, we, we es- we attained escalation dominance over Milosevic. We started slow. We started with a few bombers going in and a few strikes, and we ended up with a thousand aircraft and 23 thousand, and the threat of a ground invasion. And we were going-
David Sears: Mm hm. Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -to succeed.
David Sears: Mm.
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That was the idea. We were not going to lose. I mean, you don't let a nation of, of 10 million defy NATO.
David Sears: Well then, how to you feel about Vietnam and your experience there? Because that was such a, a difficult, difficult time-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The truth is-
David Sears: -in our nation's history.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -we shouldn't have lost in Vietnam.
David Sears: Yeah. We shouldn't have. You're right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There were two ways we could've succeeded-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -maybe three.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: First, at the outset, we could've taken greater strategic risk and actually invaded and cut the Ho Chi Minh trail through Laos.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We tried that in 19-, 1971. It was six year too late, and we failed because we used the South Vietnamese, but not American forces.
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We could have done it. We didn't do that. You have to isolate a battlefield if you're going to succeed on it.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We didn't.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The second thing we could've done is we could've I think gotten a better outcome from the Paris Peace Talks than we got. You know, we left inside South Vietnam a North Vietnamese army. We had-
David Sears: Yeah. Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -essentially ceded part of South Vietnam to the North Vietnamese.
David Sears: You're right. (inaudible)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And, a-and I know and I have great respect for Henry Kissinger. He said that was the best we could do. Well, I mean, it was the best we could do, you know, all things being considered.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But maybe.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But we should've considered some other things-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that weren't considered.
David Sears: Do you, do you feel as a, for example as a soldier on the ground, and I know you know military tactics obviously extremely well, but did, wasn't there a point during that war that Washington was trying to make more decisions about who was-
(cuts)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -over the period-
David Sears: Mm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -of years in that vicinity, and we never took the bridge down until we used a laser-guided bomb in 1972 and we dropped it on the first shot. And so, we didn't have all the tools we needed-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -to do-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -the kind of precision strikes and send those messages we were sending. So, it was a mismatch between strategy and equipment and, and equipment, but it was also a failure to understand the strategy.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: When you go into war, you should go into it reluctantly as a last resort, but when you go in, if it's important enough-
David Sears: You go in to win.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -to go into-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and risk men's lives, then you have to succeed. And that was the genesis of the Powell Doctrine, and that's really my thinking on it. I-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I don't believe that war is always immoral. I, I do think-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that the war in Iraq was an unnecessary war.
David Sears: Okay.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It may have been technically legal, because it was authorized by a UN Security Council resolution, but it was-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -it wasn't a war that was necessary.
David Sears: Well, well, let's, let's kind of go at that one last time. What would you do now if you are, let's just say you're in leadership position in this country right now, what would you do right now?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well first of all, let's look at what's happening in Iraq. There was a big hullaballoo last summer, and Democrats were trying to trying to get the troops pulled back, and people thought that the, you know, it was a failure. But the truth is violence is down in Iraq.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We don't know if that's going to stay down, because Iran and Syria have a certain impact on there, but-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -essentially what's happened is the, the Saudis and the Jordanians gave up on the Americans.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The put their money in and they encouraged the Sunni tribes to band together to throw out Al Qaeda. That's changed Al Anbar Province. The, the Shia have done so much ethnic cleansing that they're fighting amongst themselves. They're trying to sort it out. So, violence is down. there's a chance that violence will be way down by next summer, but-
David Sears: Okay, let's stay, let's stay with that. We're going to come right back from our break. I'm sorry to do this again. (laughs) That's the way we pay for things here. We'll be right back.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it's the exciting conclusion of what we're going to do.
David Sears: (laughs) That's right. We'll be right back with CRN and General Wesley Clark. Stay with us folks here on CRN Talk Radio.
(break)
David Sears: We're back on CRN Talk Radio. I'm having the best conversation with General Wesley Clark. In between segments, thank you General Clark, for coming in today and being here on CRN. We are very, very proud to present your book. Folks, this is a great book. I want you to read this book, A Time To Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country. Whether you, whether you agree with General Clark's assessments of politics today, this is a good perspective on looking at an American that served this country, has served it well. I don't agree with everything he says, but you know what? This is about listening to and talking to a man that's willing to step and lead our country. You don't have to agree with everything he wants to say and do, but you know what? I admire anybody who has served our nation greatly and military one, two is willing to take the chance to put his opinions out there in front of people, and you know, God bless him, they may not be liked by everybody but the fact that he's willing to do that. So, I want to say thank you again, General Clark, for it.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, thank you, Dave.
David Sears: But I want people to read the book, because it gives perspective. One of the things I love about my kids - I'm going to just try and do this quickly - is I try and tell them to understand history, read history. History is a great teacher of everything that you can look at in life, and if we studied history more and we looked at more people that led our country, whether it be Roman Generals or General Wesley Clark or, you know, Eisenhower during World War II, you're going to learn something about the way these people looked at life. And that's why I want to say thank you for writing the book. I think-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, thank you.
David Sears: I think it gives people perspective on parts of their world that they may not understand. So, with that, I say thank you one more time. Now, Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy, I don't know if you're still on the line. Are you still there?
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: I am. I'm alright.
David Sears: Okay. I want to thank you also for calling in. I want to give General Clark a few minutes here to kind of rap up, because we're getting towards the end of my hour. I told him I wish I had three hours with him, because by God-
Rev. Dr. Susan Kennedy: Oh-
David Sears: I could fill it up with tons of stuff. General Clark, if you were going to be in the White House tomorrow and- Well, I, I'll put it even more directly than that. If Mrs. Clinton wins are you going to be one of those people in the White House with her? Do you think there's something going on there? Is there a chance you're going to be in there.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, there's no, no way of knowing that.
David Sears: Secretary of State maybe?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There's no way of knowing that. I, I'm in the private sector. I'm in business. I wrote a book. I've got some ideas on America, and I've endorsed Hillary Clinton. I think she's-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -the right person to be President. She's got tremendous experience. She's got an enormous, enormously impressive record of achievement. She's got strong character. She can make decisions. And y-you got to ask yourself this: When you put someone in the White House-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -you want somebody who'll do the homework, and if you look at Hillary's record, this is a woman who is incredibly smart, but also hardworking.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There's not an ounce of complacency in her. She will do her homework. And the other thing is, I look at some of the people running, and I think to myself, ahh, I think they would really, they'd be really proud of themselves to have a big house, a security detail and an airplane-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and all these people fawning-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -all over them.
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But Hillary already has this. (chuckles)
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: She doesn't need this. She's not running for that.
David Sears: That's true, yeah. She already has that. That's true.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: She's not running for that reason.
David Sears: That's a good point.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Believe me.
David Sears: I'll give you that. I'll give you that.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I kind of had that when I was the NATO Commander.
(music comes in)
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I had the security detail. I had the two cars, two armored Mercedes, the two helicopters, the DC-9 and the, and the Gulf Stream jets and, and honestly you need it to do the work-
David Sears: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -but-
David Sears: Yes.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -i-if, i-if you're overly impressed with the trappings of office, you're somebody-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -we don't want in.
David Sears: Last question: What do you recommend for the people of this country right now? How can they be more involved in doing more for themselves as well as-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: First of all, I think we need people to be engaged in the, in the stuff of politics, and please don't treat politics like a religion. Please.
David Sears: (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's not.
David Sears: I agree.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I mean, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Please, it's not that, that-
David Sears: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -this is some badge of faith that you wear.
David Sears: Uh-huh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There's no savior out there.
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No person in-
David Sears: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -public life can save America.
David Sears: I agree.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We can save ourselves by working together, by studying the issues, by respecting each other, by recognizing that reasonable people can disagree and by building bridges across those disagreements to seek the wisest courses of action for America.
David Sears: Well, General Clark, I cannot thank you enough for your time here today with us. I wish I had, like I said, a couple more hours. CRN Digital Talk Radio, all across the country, all across America, "We the People," a chance where we've listened to a great leader of this nation. General Clark, thank you for coming in.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
David Sears: We wish you the best and God bless Gert. (laugh)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Dave.
David Sears: Take care.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you very much.
David Sears: We'll hopefully talk to you again soon.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I hope so too.
David Sears: Alright, thank you.
