General Wesley Clark on MSNBC News Live

November 12, 2007 1:45 PM
Transcript by Reg NYC

Kris: Congress is putting the finishing touches on this year's Defense Spending Bill. 8.7 billion dollars will be going to high tech missile defense systems. So, why spend so much cash on conventional weapons while fighting an unconventional war on terror? That's the question for MSNBC military analysts retired Four-Star General Wesley Clark and retired U.S. Army Colonel Jack Jacobs. General Clark let me start with you.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Mm hm.

Kris: Why this renewed focus on these missile defense systems?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it's not renewed. I mean, we've been focusing for a decade or more on high-altitude air defense, on intercepting missiles in flight. The question was: How high can you intercept them and how long a range missile can you intercept, because the longer range they are the faster they are? So, you have to have better technology. The technology's getting better, and the first systems are being deployed now, and there's discussion of a system of deployment in Europe. So, I think this is part of prudent defense planning. It's gone on for a long time, started in the Clinton administration. It's still moving forward.

Kris: Russia, of course, protested the U.S. plan to install missile defense systems in Eastern Europe. So, putting this cash behind it yet again, a very strong message being sent, you think?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think it's an opportunity to keep the, the technology moving forward. Congress is, has, has expressed it's reservations about the actual deployments in Europe. That's another specific authorization that would have to go through apart from the money for these programs.

Kris: The fact, Colonel, that Congress is actually authorizing more money, more cash for missile defense than even the President asked for, what does it tell us?

Col. Jack Jacobs: Well, this is an election year. We're going through an election cycle, and it was Tip O'Neil who once said that all politics is local. There's a local component of this. Don't forget that the money to build these things has to be spent somewhere. They're going to be spent in various places around the United States, and we should not ignore the fact that that has, that is one component of this decision.

Kris: What do you make of the decision overall, and, and, you just heard the General say that this is not a new focus at all on these missile defense systems. There are plenty of questions about the reliability of them. Is it worth spending the money?

Col. Jack Jacobs: Well, it's always worth spending the money because we can always print it. But one of the interesting things is that we're getting the money, we're getting the money from people who lend it to us, and that includes places like China. We've also seemed to decide that we're going to ignore what Russia's complaining about, and the fact of the matter is that Russia's getting more and more vituperative, not only about this but about our expansion and NATO's expansion, our expansion into Europe generally speaking. I think they're very much concerned about how much influence we're going to have in Europe going forward and they don't like it.

Kris: So, we're burrowing money from China?

Col. Jack Jacobs: Well, of course. China, China is one of the countries that holds among the largest amount of the, of our, of our debt. So, effectively we're borrowing money from China and other places. You see the weakness of the dollar around the world. That will continue. It's going to be more and more expensive, more difficult to do, spend money on these expensive programs going forward. It's going to be tougher and tougher to do what General Clark is suggesting we need to do. Maybe that's one of the reasons why we're spending the money now.

Kris: Would you agree with that, that it's going to get tougher and tougher, General?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I think it is. I, you know, these programs start small and they're like a wedge and they get more and more expensive as you go through. But jack is exactly right. We're borrowing the money for the Defense budget. That's essentially the gap in our foreign exchanges and other nations take U.S. dollars and they talk our, they take our credit, and, and, and we're doing these on, on loan basically. And there's no one else in the free world in the West who's investing in this kind of technology. So, our allies look at us for this, and then we'll have to see whether we deploy it or not. But I do think it's important, even though we're fighting an unconventional war, that you keep technology moving forward. There are also a lot of civilian spin-offs on some of this technology.

Kris: Well, let me ask you each - and I'll give you all of ten seconds each - we said Congress is putting the finishing touches on this Defense bill. Where should they be putting the money that you hear they're not, Jack?

Col. Jack Jacobs: Well, we're not spending money, I think, on the expansion of our capability to fight unconventional war. We're going to have to be able to fight both kinds of wars - conventional and unconventional. I don't think we're spending enough money on the later.

Kris: General, how about you?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Got to take care of space. Space is the high ground. We saw the Chinese shoot down a satellite last year, one of their old ones. We've taken the idea that space is neutral, but it isn't. And it's- our assets up there are very important to us, and they are to some degree or could at some point be at risk. Got to look after that.

Kris: Good to see you both. Didn't you guys work together?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We did.

Col. Jack Jacobs: About 4,000 years ago.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (laughs)

Col Jack Jacobs: But it looks better on General Clark-

Kris: HA, HA!

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (laughs)

Col Jack Jacobs: -than it does on me.

Kris: I'd say it looks great on both of you. Thank you, gentlemen.

Col. Jack Jacobs: You're welcome.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.

Kris: It's always a pleasure.

General Wesley Clark on MSNBC News Live

Contessa Brewer: When it comes to defending the country for the years to come, the final touches are being put on the Fiscal 2008 Defense Authorization Measure now being considered on Capitol Hill. While specifics of the bill won't be known until tomorrow, the measure's expected to include billions for several high tech missile defense programs. Projects like the airborne laser and Israeli-made Arrow program are included in the nearly 460-billion-dollar appropriations bill. We're fortunate on this Veterans' Day to have two MSNBC military analysts retired U.S. Army Colonel Jack Jacobs here with me and retired Four-Star General Wesley Clark. Gentlemen, great to see you both today.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Contessa.

Contessa Brewer: General Clark, why are we seeing a renewed interest in missile defense systems?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think this is all part of a long-standing program that was begun back during the mid-1990's to get the next phase of technology ready. We know our potential adversaries are developing increasingly capable missiles. Countries like Iran and North Korea have these systems. The question is: Can we do anything to prevent our forces or our cities or our allies from being struck? And the answer turned out to be: Yes, but it depends on the speed of the missile coming in, and that is a function of how high it flies and how far it falls down. And so, we started with the ability to intercept short-range missiles and we're moving out to the ability to intercept intercontinental ballistic range missiles. And so, this is a ten-year technology development program that's seen the first fielding in Alaska of this intercontinental ballistic intercept capability.

Contessa Brewer: You know, Colonel, I know that there was a big battle brewing in Europe over a defense missile shield that was going to go up there, and the Russians said, 'No way. This is going to re-ignite an arms race.' And so now, this bill is expected to halt that defense system. Is there a, a consideration to be made about whether having this missile defense shield really makes us safer?

Col. Jack Jacobs: Well, I think it certainly makes our allies safer, and it may in fact make us safer too. But one of the things we're ignoring right now is the vituperativeness with which Russia has taken on this subject. I- The, the, the, their Parliament has supported the Kremlin in, in getting out of the agreement that we made to keep a lid on, on conventional forces in Europe. Russia's very much concerned our ex- what they perceive to be as our expansion. NATO's now bigger than it was before. There are countries that were part of the USSR who are now part of NATO. And so, they're very much concerned. But there's no doubt about the fact that we need to plan for the future. And the, the, and the, the Ir-Iranians are not the only ones who are threats to send missiles into Europe or any of our other allies too. So, we need to plan ahead, but we also need to make sure that we do things behind the scenes to keep a lid on the nasty talk that's starting to take place.

Contessa Brewer: General, given how much money is going to have to go into planning for this missile defense shield, is there a better way defense-wise for keeping us safe? Is there a better plan to- could there be a better way to use that money?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think if any time you can talk people out of having weapons that threaten you, that's always the better way to go. And that's why I favored unconditional dialog with Iran. I'd like to see us end the cold war, the threat of the hot war with Iran, and maybe that would take away-

Contessa Brewer: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -some of the need to invest in these missile defenses in Europe. I know a lot of people believe that, but Jack's right. I mean, they, they can make our allies safer, and we do have to be careful about the Russian reaction.

Contessa Brewer: General Clark, Colonel Jacobs, thank you both.

Col. Jack Jacobs: Good to be with you.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.

General Wesley Clark on MSNBC News Live

Norrah O'Donnell: And as the nation honors its veterans, the Pentagon is busy developing weapons to fight future wars from space. Details of the 2008 Defense Spending Bill are set to be made public tomorrow, and it's expected to call for over eight billion dollars toward funding missile defense. If realized, the system could deliver a precision strike anywhere on the planet within two hours. With us now are two distinguished military veterans, retired U.S. Army Colonel Jack Jacobs and retired U.S. Army General Wesley Clark. Welcome to both of you.

Col. Jack Jacobs: Good to be here

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Norrah.

Norrah O'Donnell: And gentlemen, let me say on behalf of all of us, Happy veterans day, and it is an honor to have both of you here on this day when the nation, of course, pauses to remember yours and other veterans' service to our country. So, thank you. General, let me start with you. We've been hearing about these so-called 'Star wars' technologies since the Reagan administration. Much of that technology was obsolete by the time it was built. What's new here about this new plan, and do you think it will work?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, ever since Saddam Hussein began lobbing SCUDs at, at Israel and Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, we've become very very seriously engaged in real missile defense. This is not 'Star Wars'. This is being able to actually strike an incoming warhead, and we've got better and better technology for detecting these warheads and guiding a means to striking them, either an airborne laser or a hit-to-kill intercept system. And that's what's actually being developed year by year over a 12-, 14-year period of time. So, these are systems that are coming on board. They're increasingly able, and they're a very valuable element in the U.S. defense posture.

Norrah O'Donnell: Colonel, you just heard the General outlay why we, we need them. How exactly would they work?

Col. Jack Jacobs: Well, they would use precision-guided systems to track and catch a warhead after it's i-in the most difficult position to get, and that is when it's in re-entry. The best thing to do is catch it on the ground, but we're not, we're not likely to do ay preemptive strikes anytime soon.

Norrah O'Donnell: Mm hm.

Col. Jack Jacobs: And the whole concept of trying to catch warheads as they come in is scaring people like Putin in Russia and so on, because he doesn't like very much our- what appears to be to him and extension of our reach from our continent to his continent. And this thing, despite the fact that we're in a position perhaps to protect our own allies, it scares people like our enemies and Putin too.

Norrah O'Donnell: Absolutely. And General, you know, one of the other projects included in this bill that we're talking about is called to KEI Interceptor missile. What can you tell us about those?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm not familiar with all the technical details-

Norrah O'Donnell: Mm hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -of these, but all of these are kinetic energy intercepts.

Norrah O'Donnell: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: In other words, it's a hit-to-kill technology. You track through infrared telescopes the exact location. The missile has a homing device on it. It reads the infrared signature of the incoming missile. It has steerable engines on it, and it actually accelerates into the warhead. And then the kinetic energy, as this strikes the warhead destroys it. You may remember, Norrah, that back during the Gulf War, we had some problems, because our missiles then didn't hit. They actually were proximity-fused. And so, they might deflect the warhead, but it might still strike the ground with it's, with it's payload. And so, under the kinetic energy intercept concept-

Norrah O'Donnell: Mm hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -we can actually strike and totally obliterate a warhead in outer space.

Norrah O'Donnell: Colonel, we're, we're talking about a military hardware here, but we all know that, that the most important military assets we have are the men and women fighting in the military and our, and our veterans. On a day like Veterans Day, it is important to remember. Are they getting the care that they need certainly when they're returning to home?

Col. Jack Jacobs: Well, there's no such thing as giving too much care to your veterans. No matter how much money we spend, no matter how, how much time we spend, there's no way that we can repay the young people who defend us. There aren't enough of them, by the way. They're very, very dedicated. I-I- You're talking to a guy who believes in universal service. I'd like to see some contribution to the defense of the republic, even in our communities, not necessarily in the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines-

Norrah O'Donnell: Mm hm.

Col. Jack Jacobs: -by everybody, so that we all have a stake in the outcome of our own defense.

Norrah O'Donnell: Well Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time, and Happy Veterans' Day again.

Col. Jack Jacobs: Thank you.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.