General Wesley Clark on the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC

November 28, 2007
transcript by Reg NYC

Brian Lehrer: How about a Hillary Clinton/Wesley Clark ticket? How about another war in Kosovo. Brian Lehrer on WNYC, good morning everyone. After the news former NATO Commander Wesley Clark. He served under President Clinton, now campaigning for Hillary Clinton. Among other things, he is predicting that President Bush will declare victory in Iraq, complete with a parade, and believe it or not, he calls for sending more U.S. troops to the Balkans now, which he says could again become a major security threat.

General Wesley Clark is with me, the former NATO Commander under President Clinton, who ran for the Democratic Presidential nomination in 2004. This year, he's supporting Hillary Clinton and has been campaigning with her, fueling speculation he could even be her running mate. General, it's so nice to have you with us. Welcome to WNYC.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you. It's great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: I understand you're from Arkansas. You're with us from Little Rock today.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, I am.

Brian Lehrer: Why did you endorse Hillary Clinton for President?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I believe she's the most qualified person in the race.

Brian Lehrer: Based on...?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Most experienced, most capable, greatest policy knowledge, unparalleled record of achievement going back to high school. I'm an investment banker, and in the investment banking business, when we look at a company, we look at the leadership. We look at what they've done. What's their character going back? How, how dedicated are they? How motivated are they? How reliable are they? Hillary meets every test better than anybody else in the race.

Brian Lehrer: You know, some commentators are seeing these joint appearances you've been doing as a trial run for a ticket. Are you interested in the Vice Presidency?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's, it's nothing about me in this. What I'm interested in is getting the right person into the office of President of the United States. We've got so many challenges in this country and so many problems in the future that we can't afford another on-the-job learner in the White House like we've had with the current incumbent.

Brian Lehrer: That's a slap at Senator Obama, I guess.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, it's not. It's just a, a i-it's expression of concern about the United States of America. If you go back and look at the record, every President has problems when they come in, because it's an enormous job. But in this particular time and era, we're going to have an ongoing war in Iraq, Afghanistan, the war on terror, problems between Israel and the Palestinians, and we've got a financial crisis that's rearing it's really ugly head and seems to be getting deeper every week. All of those things require someone who's been there, comfortable with the system, understands it and can use their knowledge then to change accordingly.

Brian Lehrer: So, you say this is not about-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think Hillary meets that bill.

Brian Lehrer: -not about you, but would you rule out accepting a Vice Presidential nomination?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm in the business community right now, and I'm taking time off from business from time to time to try to do what I can to help Hillary become the next President. I think she's the best person in the race.

Brian Lehrer: You were quoted last week saying President Bush would soon declare victory in Iraq to allow for a troop drawdown before the election. Did you say that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I did.

Brian Lehrer: Is victory at hand?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think victory's at hand, but (laughs) I think he's going to declare it. What's go- what's happened is that there's been so much killing over there and Iran managed to consolidate its grip on the Shia in such a way that the need for the sort of intramural violence, the civil war has declined. And on the other hand, the Sunnis have decided they better hang together and fight not only Al Qaeda in Iraq, but also be prepared to fight the Shia, and we're sitting on top of this. We're sort of promoting it. It's not clear at all that we're ever going to get the kind of political resolution in Iraq that we need, but it is clear that the violence is declining. I think the President will take advantage of that. I think he'll bring some troops home. It's what I've been telling Democrats, the, the, the challenge is not to get the troops home. The challenge is to got the job done the right way to protect U.S. interests in the region and the interests of our allies AND get our troops redeployed back so we can deal with the other urgent problems abroad and at home.

Brian Lehrer: You said, in, in that quote, "The President will declare victory. He'll withdraw some troops. There'll be a parade in New York and there'll be an effort to make the Republicans look good."

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, actually I said a parade in Washington, but-

Brian Lehrer: In Washington. Oh, but-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -but I was misquoted. (laughs)

Brian Lehrer: (laughs)

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But I think it'll be a parade right down Constitution Avenue, and it'll certainly be an effort to claim credit.

Brian Lehrer: A real parade? You think he'll say were at that point?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Certainly. I certainly do. I think that's exactly what he's going to do.

Brian Lehrer: 'Mission Accomplished' again?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, he may not actually use those terms, but I think he'll try to certainly take credit. He's, he, he, he's going to be desperate to help the Republican Party and its candidates, and I think the declining casualties give him the opportunity he's looking for.

Brian Lehrer: Must've been one of those New York journalists who changed the venue.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Nah, (laughs) I don't know, but it will be a good parade wherever it was. I'm in favor of our troops. They've done a great job over there. My criticism has been that the President's never shown the diplomatic leadership he needs, and we need someone who's experienced, who's met foreign leaders, who understands the requirements of diplomacy, how to put the pieces of government together to work these foreign policy issues.

Brian Lehrer: My guest on WNYC General Wesley Clark. Optimists about the war, General, say the local leaders are making peace on the ground in ways that the Maliki government is uncapable (sic) of from the top, power sharing with each other, albeit informally, cooperating with the U.S. and the government is sharing oil revenues even without a formal oil sharing. So, they say things are looking up. How much of that would you agree with?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I agree with a lot of that, but the issue is: Where does it lead? And where it's lead so far is: Imagine this, we know we have a problem with Iran. So, we attack Iraq. We take out the cork in the bottle. We give Iran greater influence in the region, and Iran then moves quickly to consolidate it's grip on most of Iraq. At the end of five and a half years, 800 billion dollars and 4000 U.S. dead, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead, Iran is stronger and the United States is weaker. Regardless of where the casualties end from up month to month, does that sound like a winning strategy to you? It doesn't to me.

Brian Lehrer: So, how do you get further than that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think you've got to face the reality in the region. The Bush administration has for six years, seven years refused to talk to people it doesn't agree with. It's played domestic politics with foreign policy. It's been an outrageous misuse of the Armed Forces of the United States. And I think the United States has got to face up to our real responsibilities in the region, to talk to people that we don't agree with, including Iran, and try to salvage some greater stability in the region.

Brian Lehrer: Let me play you a clip of Vice Chief of Staff of the Army General Richard Cody on this show on Veterans' Day. He was talking about the need to build up troop levels in the full time military, and listen to what he said.

General Richard Cody (on tape): Someone asked me, you know, "How big should the Army be?" Right now, we're growing it to 547,000 on the active force. We'll reach that number by 2010. I think we're going to be in a period of two or three decades of persistent conflict. I think that in time is going to require a much larger active duty force. In a perfect world, we'd like to deploy the active duty force one year in combat with a maximum, excuse me, a minimum of two years back and then not have to call on the National Guard, but one, one year within a five year time period. We think that's about the rotation scheme that we can sustain the all volunteer force with. But if we're going to be in persistent conflict for two decades, the active duty force is going to have to grow past 547,000.

Brian Lehrer: General Clark, do you also see us in a persistent war - I gather that's an administration term now - a persistent war of 20 to 30 years in duration?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, if I were an Army leader and looking at this administration, I'd certainly have to plan that way. But no, I don't think that's necessary. I think it's possible. I think with the right leadership elected in 2008, we can extract our troops from Iraq. I think we can set a better course for stabilization of the Middle East. I think we can work harder at resolving these persistent quarrels in the region. I think we can develop allies and use them to fight against Al Qaeda in a way much more effective than the Bush administration's used, and I think all of that will take the load off the United States Armed Forces and especially off the United States Army.

Brian Lehrer: But he wasn't just talking about Iraq. He was talking about the greater war on terrorism as it's called, meaning that the U.S. has to be ramped up for the next 20 or 30 years. How to prevent that, in your opinion?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think you have to use the nonmilitary means of power. I think you have to use American diplomacy, American economic strength, American legitimacy. I think you have to use international law and law enforcement. And only as a last resort use the military. This administration, for domestic political reasons, could hardly wait to send our men and women into combat in Iraq. President Bush flew down in November of 2001 to rally the troops at the 101st at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, to tell them, 'Hey, get really. We're going to need you in there.' He could hardly wait to send the Army in. It was a great domestic political rallying cry, and unfortunately we're reaping the consequences of it, not only in the terrible frustration and the suffering of the men and women in uniform who volunteered, but in the frustration of our policy abroad, where it's been gravely imbalanced. You cannot succeed with military force alone, especially in this long struggle with Is- with Is-Islamist terrorists.

Brian Lehrer: You used-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You've got to take away their recruiting base. You've got to work the economic, social, political and intellectual, ideological foundations of that.

Brian Lehrer: You used the term 'law enforcement'. Do you even accept the label 'War on Terrorism'. Some people say we should be discussing law enforcement actions against groups like Al Qaeda or individuals who stage these rare but of course catastrophic terrorist attacks.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, we are using law enforcement against it. I- The, the term 'war' has been a frequent rallying cry in the American public, but it's lost its meaning. And you know, we had a war on, we got a war on drug abuse, and yet there's still drug abuse. We had a war on energy to try to reduce our dependence on foreign energy, but we're still dependent on foreign energy sources. So, when you say 'war' I mean, it's supposed to rally the people, but the administration hasn't rallied the American people. And the use of the war misleads people into believing that somehow you can send a bunch of 19 and 20-year-olds in uniform with guns out, chase around in a foreign country and, and somehow stop terrorists. You can't.

Brian Lehrer: But war, war on-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They are the last, last, last resort.

Brian Lehrer: War on drugs, some of those others are metaphorical. The President means the war on terrorism in a literal sense. We are at war. Would you not use that word other than Iraq?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I wouldn't. I don't think that's the proper word to describe the way to win. I think if you want to describe the way to win, you could call it a struggle. You can call it a conflict. But when you mislead people into calling it a war and, and with the implication that it- Look, the best way to win a war is not to fight it, and if we handle ourselves the right way through law enforcement, through many other policies, we will cut off the recruiting base of Al Qaeda. There are a billion Muslims in the world. Most of them don't hate the United States. Most of them don't hate Americans, and most of them don't want to have anything to do with killing Americans. So, you shouldn't think of this in those kinds of terms. Should think of it in terms and if you look at the successes other nations have had in dealing with terrorist threats, their successes are much greater when they view it first and foremost as a law enforcement problem and only as a last resort calling in the military.

Brian Lehrer: So, what do you think the negative implications are, General Clark, of talking in those terms, of calling it 'War on Terrorism' of General Cody coming on and saying "a persistent 20 or 30 year war"?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, first of all, Dick Cody's speaking as the Vice Chief of Staff of the United States Army. He is the captive of an administration which is talking in terms of a, of a long war. There are people associated with this administration who want to talk about it as World War IV and so forth. I think that's a mistake. The United States' greatest power is the power of our legitimacy, of the rule of law. To have U.S. soldiers crashing around in the boondocks in other countries, and running through alleyways and with snipers on rooftops and so forth and young men from Iowa and Arkansas in uniform and plugging away at people - that's not the way to win this war. The way to win this war is for local people to, in those countries, to respect each other, to sign up for economic development and education and find hope in their ordinary lives the way people everywhere do. And if we help them do that we'll cut off the recruiting base of Al Qaeda. Then we'll be left with a few die- thousand diehards that can be arrested and brought to trial as they should be and put in jail or executed.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. More with former NATO Commander General Wesley Clark in a minute.

(break)

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with General Wesley Clark, the Commander of NATO during the Clinton years, now campaigning from time to time and here in support of the Presidency or the Presidential candidacy of Hillary Clinton. General, when General Cody, the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army was here on Veterans' Day, he also said, "The U.S. downsized the Army too much after the Cold War under President Clinton, setting up the shortage of troops we've had for Iraq and Afghanistan." Do you think the Army was shrunk too much then?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely, but it started under President George H. Bush with the recommendations of then Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney and, and that's what brought the troop strength down. What we did in the Clinton years actually was to begin to strengthen the procurement side of the military and bring the Armed Forces back. The so-called transformation actually that Rumsfeld wanted to do when he became Secretary of Defense was actually undertaken during the Clinton administration with wholesale investment-

Brian Lehrer: Bri-bring the Army back? Didn't the Army continue to shrink under Clinton?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The, the Army went down from 780,000 in the mid 1980's to 580- 485,000, but most of that shrinkage occurred during the Republican years, not during the Democratic years.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a number at which the Army should be now? I think General Cody's number was 545,000.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think if we can get to 545 and we can strengthen our Reserve and National Guard, we should be in good shape depending on our foreign policy. This administration's lurching toward conflict with Iran. I see no reason for that conflict at this point. I'd like to see us talk with Iran and try to head this off, but there are any number of eventualities out there that could drive up Army requirements, especially of we're led by a group of people who seem to revel in the commitment of the Armed Forces to war.

Brian Lehrer: Are there specific circumstances under which you think military action against Iran would be necessary?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think that I would speculate on that. I've said that all options are on the table. It looks to me, based on the latest evidence that we've seen from the International Atomic Energy Agency that Iran is still moving toward the acquisition of, of nuclear weapons, and I'd be very, very concerned about that. But I think the first line of approach is to talk with Iran. I don't see the United States invading Iran. It's a big country. It's a third the size of the United States. We certainly can't do it whether you have 500,000 or 600,000 or 700,000 people in the army. We simply don't have the capacity to invade. The Iranians know it and we know it.

Brian Lehrer: General, Are we relying on companies like Blackwater too much because of the troop shortage?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think we are. I think the reliance on these- I-I think it's okay to have an off-duty policeman stand guard at a bank after hours, but I don't think it's okay to, to hire people who need machine guns and armed helicopters and heavy armored vehicles in a foreign country to use force. Because when they use force in support of their limited role, they may undercut the efforts of the larger U.S. role in the region, and that's what's happened with Blackwater. Their rules of engagement simply haven't been strict enough and they haven't been in compliance with U.S. policy and they haven't even been in compliance with U.S. law apparently.

Brian Lehrer: So, if you were a Se-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I wouldn't, I would add the troops strength and, and get rid of that heavy civilian contractor.

Brian Lehrer: So, if you were, say, Defense Secretary in a Hillary Clinton Administration, you would bar the use of private security contractors in war zones?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, as I said I think you can use private security contractors in some areas, but I think when it requires machine guns and armed helicopters, you're into a grave problem. No, I don't like hiring private security contractors in war zones.

Brian Lehrer: The fact that they're defending State Department officials or guarding State Department officials rather then U.S. troops, does that rub you the wrong way?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think it's, it's that particular issue. The, the issue with the Blackwater is that when they perform their guard mission, their rules of engagement are not attuned to the overall mission of the U.S. force. If you look at Blackwater, their sole function is to protect people that they're, that they're assigned and to protect themselves. Well, by that, by that function, I mean, you could sweep the streets clean of people. You could shoot at anything that moved, and while they haven't quite gone that far, we don't know what their actual rules of engagement have been. We know when we put the U.S. military in there and they're charged to win the hearts and minds of the people that they'll have the right balance, and it'll be a line of authority that goes up to the President of the United States, the Commander In Chief of the Armed Forces, as it should be. And someone will be held accountable for any abuse of those standards. In the case of Blackwater, that accountability's not clear.

Brian Lehrer: General Wesley Clark, my guest on WNYC and General, what do you think of the Annapolis Middle East agreement so far?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you know, I'm, I'm very happy that the administration is, is finally hosting these contending leaders, and I hope something positive will come out of it. It's not clear. I mean, there are as many concerns as there are reasons for why this should work, but I hope it will work.

Brian Lehrer: You know, the blogger Steve Clemens, who's got a foreign policy background, said here yesterday that a UN peacekeeping force should be included in a final two-state agreement strong enough to fight Hamas if they keep attacking Israel after Palestine is created. Does that sound like the way to go to you?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I haven't seen Steve's blog. I know Steve. I've always been wary of injecting outside forces between the two parties. Because the record of outside forces is they get blamed for mistakes, but they usually lack the intelligence and the effectiveness to really make a difference.

Brian Lehrer: What do you think the alternative would be to ensure Israeli security?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think the real alternative is that the Palestinians have to really get a grip on their own security situation. They have to use law, and they have to clamp down on the kinds of groups that could threaten Israel's security. That's going to be their obligation under an agreement.

Brian Lehrer: The Bush administration, as you know, used to take the position of the Israeli right that no peace talks are better than peace talks, that they're likely to make things worse, but now he's pushing this process. Do you think that Bush administration interests and the interest of the Israeli right have suddenly diverged?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I-it's just not clear where the administration's coming from. I hope they are pushing this and I hope the Israeli right will look at the opportunity to resolve some of these issues and see the advantages of doing so. But I think we have to look at the substance of the negotiations. How are we going to get the final settlement issues agreed? How are we going to resolve the disposition of Jerusalem? How is the issue of the Palestinian return going to be handled, what settlements and what's the territorial division, in the West Bank? Those are issues that have to be discussed. They have to be discussed factually and realistically, and then both parties have to committed to the outcome.

Brian Lehrer: And just for our listeners to know, we'll be trying to do just that next hour with two leading Middle Eastern journalists - one Israeli, one Arab. How to get to yes after Annapolis. General Clark, you led the Kosovo operation for NATO in 1999. Today, this very day, there is news that talks on the final status of Kosovo have collapsed. They're threatening to declare complete independence from Serbia, and there is fear that could lead to a new set of Balkan wars with Serbs then wanting independence from Bosnia and their Serbian region of Kosovo. How likely do you think new Balkan fighting is right now?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I would say it's possible, but I would say it's not the most probable outcome. I think what's needed right now is that the United States and NATO need to show strength in the region. From the time they came into office, the Bush administration has tried to back away from the achievements of its predecessors in the Balkans. In the Clinton years, we did settle a very, very destructive war in the Balkans and help stabilize Europe, but those agreements had to be followed through. And the administration right now needs to deploy troops in a preventive way into Kosova, and it needs to work with the European Union and ensure that the Bosnian Serbs are told in no uncertain terms that the Dayton Agreement, which they signed, is international law. There'll be no withdrawal of the Republica Srpska from Bosnia. And if we take the right measures, if we are forceful up front, we can deter conflict. If the West sits back and waits for something to happen distracted, then conflict is possible.

Brian Lehrer: Do I understand you correctly, General? Are you calling for a new deployment of American troops to Kosovo now?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'd like to see a renewed NATO troop presence in Kosova, throughout Kosova, not only in Southern Kosova but in the Northern section of Kosova in Mitrovica and North of the Ibar River. We have drawn down troop strength there over the last nine years. We need to put that operation back on the front burner. People need to look at it, and the United States of America needs to pay attention.

Brian Lehrer: How many troops?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, that's a function really for the military to determine.

Brian Lehrer: Does this mean that your campaign there in 1999 or the Western political arrangements after the war were failures?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I think our campaign there was extremely successful, but I think that the administration, this administration, had an obligation it hasn't lived up to to follow through on the progress and gains that were made.

Brian Lehrer: Can I ask you as a former Commander of NATO and since Afghanistan is a NATO action, if you think that war is being fought the right way and if other NATO countries are holding up their end?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, NATO bought a pig in a poke in Afghanistan, and, and I tried to warn some of the NATO leaders at the time that Afghanistan wasn't, there was never a strategy for success in Afghanistan. You cannot win Afghanistan by dropping bombs on suspected Taliban insurgents. You have got to provide for the economic development of the country, and you've got to cut off the sanctuary in Pakistan that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are using. Absent strategies to deal with those two areas, the military piece is simply inadequate in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, NATO doesn't have the strategies. It's really been th-the United States is he leading power in NATO. It's been the American responsibility to put those strategies in place, and we simply haven't done so. Take the case of opium production in Afghanistan. Crop substitution is absolutely required. People have to be able to grow something else, receive livelihood for it and transform their economy back into something that's productive. It just so happens that most of their agricultural capital was destroyed in 20 years of conflict - the irrigation ditches, the orchards and so so forth. So, they're growing opium poppies, and if you just go out there and try to spray the opium poppies, you take away people's livelihood, and they hate you for it. And so, you've got to have a positive program, not a negative program. That positive program hasn't been put in place. Despite years of discussion, it hasn't been put in place. So, absent that, yes, NATO's not going the right way in Afghanistan. But closer to home, NATO's got to pay attention in the Balkans, because this is a risk to Europe.

Brian Lehrer: Draw that out for me. What's the risk to Europe?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, what we've had is a Europe that is stable. It's modernizing. It's coming together around open borders, around no customs, around a larger economic and social space, and, and now inside that space, Serbia, backed by Russia, is asserting a sort of traditional nationalist policies. These policies have led to murder and genocide in the last decade, decade and a half. They'll generate refugee flows, fear, sanctions, war, diversion of resources, and they'll disrupt the peaceful economic development of, of a whole continent. So, I think Europe has to pay attention.

Brian Lehrer: And you think Europe and the United States aren't paying enough attention to the Balkans right now.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that's exactly right. I think that although the administration has said that they would do their best to bring about a peaceful resolution of the independence crisis, the fact is that the horsepower hasn't been devoted to it.

Brian Lehrer: We just have a few minutes left with General Wesley Clark supporting Hillary Clinton for President, being rumored by some as a possible Vice Presidential running mate as he's made some appearances with her lately. Another possible distraction for our last couple of minutes here, General, back to Iraq, I gather there were documents captured recently that showed most attacks come from Iraqi Sunni insurgents, but that the most foreign fighters are from the U.S. allies of Saudi Arabia and Libya. In other words, those are the countries that the individual foreign insurgents are coming in from. Did you see that and what do you make of it?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I've seen those reports.

Brian Lehrer: So, the U.S. is so focused now on fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq. Do you think there are cells in Saudi Arabia or Libya recruiting these fighters and maybe they'll follow is home as the President says and the U.S. should do something about them?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think there'll- I, I think the thing to do about the cells is to allow the Libyan and Saudi governments to take action. I don't think there's a great risk that these Al Qaeda terrorist will follow us home, so to speak. The don't have any ships. They don't have any airplanes. They don't have a state. The don't have a government. They don't have research and development. This is not the Cold War. It's not the Soviet Union. And, and those who would portray it as such do a great disservice to the American people who are trying to understand the conflict. The right way to handle Saudi terrorist cells is for the Saudi government to work against them, as it's done with some success over the last three or four years.

Brian Lehrer: And one last thing on Afghanistan, Senator Obama has said he would send troops into the mountains of Pakistan without Pakistan's permission if we know where Bin Laden or other Al Qaeda leaders are and Pakistan won't go get them. Is that Senator Clinton's or your position too?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I, I'd let Senator Clinton speak for herself on this thing. I-if I had been running, I wouldn't have been talking about the military force projections and such like that, because I don't think it's constructive. But let's put it this way, I-I think the United States should work very diligently with the government of Pakistan to do everything that's necessary to break up this base area and, and that includes the use of military forces and the assistance of the United States. And then, let's let the diplomats work behind the scenes to figure out exactly what that means.

Brian Lehrer: So, if you could be Vice President, Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense which would you choose?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I'm not going to get into that speculation game. That, that, that I, I'm in the business community. I'm an investment banker. I'm a consultant. I'm working with numerous businesses. I enjoy my life right now.

Brian Lehrer: Treasury Secretary?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'm living in Little Rock, Arkansas, and I'm just trying to, to speak out and help Americans choose the right person to be the President of the United States. I ran in 2003. I was very happy to do that. I learned a little about the process. I have a lot of thoughts about the country, and, and I'm sharing those with other people because I think 2008 is a critical election. We've got to get it right, America, and let's get someone in there who's got experience, who's got passion and who can lead this country forward. And that's why I'm supporting Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Brian Lehrer: Former NATO Commander, General Wesley Clark. General, thank you so much for joining us today.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you. It's great to be with you.