General Wesley Clark on MSNBC's Morning Joe
April 3. 2008
Transcript by RegNYC
Joe Scarborough: Let's bring in right now General Wesley Clark. He is of course-
Mika Brzezinski: Aah, Wesley Clark.
Joe Scarborough: -a retired General, MSNBC analyst and a supporter of Hillary Clinton. General, thank you for being with us.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Great to be with you, Joe.
Joe Scarborough: Some interesting developments in Iraq, we find out that John McCain is surprised, and I guess some American Generals probably were too, that the Prime Minister of Iraq decided to take his troops and go South to Basra and launch this counteroffensive without us even knowing about it.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Seems remarkable that we didn't have a better source of information and closer relationships with the Prime Minister and the Iraqi Security Forces, but it is their country. And one of the problems we've had from the very outset is we never quite had the right legal framework to justify the American involvement and to integrate our efforts closely with the Iraqi political system, and we've never quite been able to reach all sides of the Iraqi political system. You know, one of the most disturbing things about it, Joe, is not that Maliki's forces didn't blitz through Basra and destroy all the militias, but in fact the end of the fighting was more or less negotiated by the Iranians as they worked with all the factions there to get them to lay down their arms or put their arms back in hiding at least and stop killing each other. So, that's an, that's a demonstration of where real power lies, and it's quite, it's quite somber when you look at the results there.
Joe Scarborough: Well, it looks like Al Sadr's the most powerful guy in the entire country. He started it, and when he decided to end it, it ended. Right? So, is that what we're looking at as a future of Iraq-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I don't- It's not clear that he's the-
Joe Scarborough: -an Iraq run by Al Sadr?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's not clear that he's the the most powerful guy, but it is clear that he came out ahead in political perceptions after this. As I said, the Iranian role is really crucial here. And just one more thing on Al- Al Sadr, we've always, we've always treated him as an adversary, and he's certainly been vocal against us and his, his militia is dangerous and has attacked U.S. forces. But (chuckles) the fact is he wants us out of there, and there are a whole lot of us who want the same thing. The question is: How can we do it in a way that doesn't cause greater conflict and tension in the region?
Joe Scarborough: Alright, is that- Let, let's, let's talk about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's position for getting us out of Iraq. If he wants us out, and a lot of Americans want us out of there, don't, don't they have almost identical plans to, to have a phased out withdrawal from Iraq?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think all the Democrats more or less had the same perspective that unlike 2004, when it was pretty hard for a lot of Democrats to, to recognize that it was a mistake to go into Iraq. Now the Democratic Party has pretty clearly recognized that we got to get out of there. The question is: How do you do it?
Mika Brzezinski: Mm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I think what distinguishes, as best I can tell- Of course, I'm supporting Hillary. I'm not inside the Barack campaign. I don't know their real thinking. But I think that, that Hillary has, has emphasized the word 'beginning' within 60 days, with the military and national security advisors organizing the plan and a responsible withdrawal, using the full array of diplomatic and political measures working a regional strategy. I don't think Barack Obama's plans have been that, that fleshed out in that much detail.
Mika Brzezinski: Uh-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But he has leaned toward saying he's trying to complete the withdrawal within 16, within 16 months.
Mika Brzezinski: Would you-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I'm against, I'm against fixed timelines. I think it's just, I think it sets up false expectations and takes away some of your bargaining leverage.
Mika Brzezinski: I think it's fair to say that a fixed timeline, especially one of 16 months, may not be realistic. But also responsible withdrawal, I mean, it almost sounds nebulous, like that could mean anything. And I mean, what's the reality, that we will be there for how many more years, realistically, and can the Democratic candidates, including Hillary Clinton, maybe talk about that more realistically?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think any, any talk about the future like this is always involved- it always involves speculation. But what she means by responsible is that this is going to be an extraordinarily difficult thing to pull these troops out of Iraq. On every side, there will be problems. The Al Qaeda, what's left of it worldwide, is going to say they forced us out. The Iranians are going to appear to be the big winners. People that we supported in Iraq are going to want us there. There are political forces in the United States that are going to say you're abandoning the troops, you're, you're not listening and, and approving of their sacrifices previously. There are going to be a lot pre- and any violence that occurs or spikes during the withdrawal is going to be blamed on the withdrawal. So, we can't underestimate the difficulty of this. So, that's why when Hillary says 'responsible,' she casts the broadest picture of it - new strategy, regional diplomacy, groups of nations working together, trying to bring outsiders in to help monitor the withdrawal, working with the Iraqi forces on the ground, trying to continue our training mission there.
Mika Brzezinski: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There are many elements of this that will drive the timing.
Mika Brzezinski: Alright, so- And just give me a sense, and I'm, I'm reading a little bit of your quotes on this, but in terms of Mrs. Clinton's Iraq vote, was it a mistake and should she just say that?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think that's, that's, that's sort of ancient history at this point. I think that what she was voting for was the need to get the problem up to the UN. I testified in front of Congress in 2002, both the Senate and the House, and at that time the Iraqi resolutions hadn't quite been defined. There were several different versions of them. But I certainly saw the need for the Congress to pass a broad resolution so that the President could take this problem to the United Nations, because it was clear to me at the time that the administration was angling for war. The planning was underway. My military friends were telling me, 'Hey this is it. We're going to war. We're going to war.' And I'm thinking, How can you stop this? You, you, you know, you know Saddam Hussein is a problem. The best way to deal with it is through the United Nations. And so, that's what Hillary tried to do. But I think that it's also true that the administration did not use the Congressional vote to its best advantage.
Mika Brzezinski: Hm.
Joe Scarborough: Alright. General Wesley Clark, always great talking to you.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.
Mika Brzezinski: Thanks for coming on.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Joe, Mika, good to be with you. Thank you.
Joe Scarborough: Alright.
