You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkReBAQOYh4

June 30, 2008

Transcription by Melange

Dan Abrams: Breaking tonight, General Wesley Clark is with us live for his first interview since he ignited a major controversy yesterday by questioning the relevance of John McCain's military service as a POW in Vietnam. The question: how significant is it in this campaign? The McCain camp jumped on the comments by Clark, who's now an Obama supporter, linking them to Obama's campaign saying quote, "Obama's words don't really match up with the way he is running the campaign." Joining me now is General Wesley Clark. General Clark, thanks very much uh, for joining us. We appreciate it. Now, you set off quite a firestorm here with both McCain and Obama coming out and rejecting your comments. First let me play the comments at issue from CBS yesterday.

<Video Clip>

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air…in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it publicly'

Bob Schieffer: Well

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He hasn't made those calls, Bob.

Bob Schieffer: Well, well, General, maybe ...

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So....

Bob Schieffer: Could I just interrupt you. If…

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure.
Bob Schieffer: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President.

<end Video Clip>

Dan Abrams: Now that's the one that ended up being the real zinger, General. And as a result, a lot of response here. Admiral Lleyton Smith has said, ‘General Clark is way off base on this one.' Lieutenant commander Carl Smith says quote "it reflects extremely bad judgment." Senator Warner saying he was shocked. Former Reagan National Security Advisor Robert Macfarland saying it might be part of a larger gambit. Bob Dole says, ‘he should have stayed in bed on Sunday.' What's your response?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well first of all Dan, thanks for having me on. I don't want to do anything to take away from this very important week where Barack Obama, the man I support to be President, has talked about patriotism and service. But I do appreciate the chance to be on. Now, I wasn't representing the Obama campaign in anything I said yesterday about John McCain. Those are comments I've said for some weeks now – they've been repeated many times, I think once previously on your show, perhaps. But I have said them on many occasions and I think it's an important point that we understand that this is an issue about the qualifications to be president. National Security is going to be a very important uh, element of this campaign and people are going to be asking ‘who can best protect America.' But I want to assure you, I would never, never diss someone's service. When people choose to serve in uniform, I honor it.

And Dan, I came home from Vietnam on a stretcher; I was shot; I took a burst of AK, I got 4 rounds; I was in 3 different hospitals and finally got home, and eventually recovered and went on to serve. Uh, so I think I know a little bit about what it's like to honor men and women who serve in uniform; and I do and I would never dismiss somebody. So I think, you know, there's a lot of tempest here, but I think we need to get on with the major issues of the campaign. I think we need to listen to Barack Obama as he defines patriotism and talks about the big issues facing this country.
Dan Abrams: You…You mentioned that you'd said it before. We've actually gone back to see if you've said it on our show before. I think that the part that has really gotten people, which I don't think you have said before was the part about ‘riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down' effectively is not a qualification for president. That's the line that has been the most controversial. Are you sorry you said it?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's a great line. I didn't make it up – it was given to me by the interviewer and I don't think it's a great line in terms of conveying…you know, it's too bad; I wish that people hadn't misinterpreted that and lost sight of the important point. But I think, you know, we need to get on to the important point here about what are the qualifications to be president? Serving in the armed forces is a great thing. It's a great gift to the country and it shows commitment and, particularly if you're in combat, it can show courage. And John McCain showed all of that. On the other hand, it depends on what your position was in the armed forces and what you did there as to how relevant that service is to the strategic decision-making that is the essence of protecting the United States as President and that was the point I was making.

Dan Abrams: Does it show anything, though, about John McCain's character, that he had the opportunity to leave and he didn't, that he gave himself for his country and refused to go home when he had an opportunity?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I honor John McCain's character, and as I've said on the show, he's been one of my heroes for a long time. I like John McCain. He's been over to my house and everything. This is about qualifications to be President. That's what this is about. And, by the way, it's also a little bit about the nature of American politics today that a comment like this could be taken out of context the way it was and create such a hullabaloo. I think we ought to get back to the campaign.

Dan Abrams: Well, there's no…

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But I want to make clear where I stand on honoring men and women – and I don't care what their politics are – honoring men and women who served our country and I do.

Dan Abrams: Let me read you from Bill Burton, the Obama campaign spokesperson. "As he's said many times before, Senator Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by General Clark."

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I agree with Senator Obama. I honor and respect John McCain's service as well and I think language of this type is uh, and this kind of a discussion shouldn't be part of a campaign.

Dan Abrams: So do you reject the statements of General Clark?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I reject the idea that you'd take something like this and swiftboat it all out of proportion which is exactly what happened. In fact Dan, just as a sidelight, you might know that…that one of the people that organized the conference call for McCain with the reporters is one of the people who was very active in the swiftboating campaign against John Kerry. So what you've got here is a political gambit. It's a tactic by the McCain campaign.

Dan Abrams: But it's the Ob…

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And it obscures the real issues of this election, which is: which candidate is better qualified – which candidate has the judgment to be President of the United States?

Dan Abrams: I…look, I think that's a fair point. In terms of the big issues in this campaign, this is not going to be one of them but when you have the campaign spokesperson for the Obama camp coming out and rejecting your statements, that says something, doesn't it?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I think it says I…first of all, I wasn't representing any part of the Obama campaign in that discussion of John McCain. I want to make that perfectly clear. That's something I've been saying for weeks. Before Obama clinched the nomination, I was still saying that…or I was beginning to say that then. I've said this about John McCain's qualifications for a long time.

I've been in war, I've commanded war at the strategic level as well as having commanded at the tactical level. I've paid the personal price in bloodshed; I know what it's like to order men and women into combat and to pray for innocent people that they won't be hurt. And so what I'm suggesting is that there's a difference in the two levels of war and the levels of responsibility and you can honor a person's service but still ask, ‘okay, what's the real weight of that service in terms of qualifications or judgment that's required in the office of the Commander in Chief.'

Dan Abrams: Well let me ask you that. Is there anything about John McCain's service that you think is relevant in his effort to become President of the United States?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely. I think anybody who serves in uniform, who serves their country – especially in wartime, who has gone through the kind of privations and hardships of John McCain should be honored for his character and courage. And I certainly do.

Dan Abrams: But you say "honored for their character and courage," but I'm asking you specifically about…do you think that it's relevant in his effort to become President. Yes or no? Do you think that is a qualification that gives John McCain an edge on that particular issue?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think people look for character and courage in their presidents. But I don't think you have to have been at war to show character and courage. I think you can find character and courage in other candidates. I think you can find them in Barack Obama's life, for example. So I think that, you know, the voters have to make their own minds up on what constitutes the essential elements of character and courage.

But here we're talking about how experience leads to judgment and I think on that issue, that's what I think has to be clarified because where it leads to national security experience, and we're talking about keeping America safe, the American people are going to have to make a judgment: which candidate has the judgment - the best judgment, to keep America safe in a troubled world?

Dan Abrams: So I've got to ask you though, this follow-up question – do you stand by your comment that you "don't think that riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification for president." Do you stand by that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I stand by the comment that when you talk about someone's wartime experience, you have to put that in the context of the level of their service, what that service consisted of and how it matches up to the requirements of the job of the presidency of the United States.
Dan Abrams: So does that mean…again, that you "don't think that riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification for president?"

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think it's an incredible testimony to John McCain's courage that he endured the privations and hardship he did and I think that the American people have always been impressed by that – as I have been impressed by that. But I'm supporting Barack Obama. I think he has judgment. I think he has character and I do think that he has courage. I think he'll be a great Commander in Chief despite the fact that he didn't serve. I think he is a patriot in the truest sense of the word.

Dan Abrams: I want to play you a piece of sound from John McCain uh, talking about this issue and then I want to ask you to respond.

<video clip>

John McCain: I know that many…that General Clark is not an isolated incident. I have no way of knowing how much involvement Senator Obama has in that issue…

<end video clip>

Dan Abrams: Now you said that the Obama camp did not send you out to make this comment. Did you have any conversations with the Obama camp before you made this statement?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely not. As I've said, that statement has been made for a long time about John McCain's wartime experience and its relevance to the office of the presidency. I've been saying that for months now so there's no news in that whatsoever. Um, and it had no connection with the Obama campaign

Dan Abrams: Have…
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: and uh, you know…I certainly agree that we shouldn't be dissing someone's military service and I haven't done that.
Dan Abrams: Have you called the Obama campaign since this became quite a story to either apologize or clarify your statement?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I've certainly talked to the Obama campaign.
Dan Abrams: I mean since then to say, ‘look, here's what I meant' or ‘I'm sorry that I said it' or what did you say to them?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I talked to the Obama campaign, but I'm here tonight to talk to you and the other people who are watching your show, Dan. And I want to make it very clear that I respect people that have served in uniform – especially those who served in wartime and were wounded in action. I was one of those people and I also served later so I think I understand the difference between courage and commitment as an officer or sergeant or soldier at war – or a pilot – and someone who's making strategic decisions such as the President of the United States will have to make. And I hope the American people will see past the firestorm of the swiftboating that's being attempted in this story, and look at the issue. Which candidate has the judgment to be the better President of the United States?

Dan Abrams: Are you surprised at how big a deal this has become?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well no, I'm not surprised by politics today. I've been in it for a while, but I think it's an important…this is an important time to recognize that people's qualifications are important. And what I'd like to do Dan, is make sure the American people understand that I, as a retired officer, have tremendous respect for everyone who served and I think that we ought to get on and let the candidates have their say on these issues.

Dan Abrams: Well look, General Clark, I'm going to ask you to stand by because some people think that what you said was true and there should be no backtracking at all. Um, others would say, as you heard all the comments that were made that this is a statement that never should have been made, but there is…there are definitely two sides to this issue. So if you don't mind, if you could just stand by for a minute, I want you to join our panel in a minute uh, and also coming up John McCain gets some help combating the attacks on his military record from one of the vets responsible for swiftboating John Kerry. Yes, the same swiftboater McCain once criticized.

<snip>

Dan Abrams: We're back with more with General Wesley Clark and those controversial statements in a moment.

<snip>
Dan Abrams: We're back. Before we get to our panel, uh welcome back General Wesley Clark. I was going to ask you one question before we thank you for sticking around. General Clark of course, usually an MSNBC analyst, tonight a newsmaker uh, here on the program. General Clark final question – uh, I've asked it to you a couple of times, I'm not sure I know what the answer is. Are you sorry you made the comments you did?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well Dan, I'm not backing away from anything I said. I think there's a very important issue here that this is an election that's going to be about change in America but one of the critical aspects will be, who can best protect America? And so the voters will look at the qualifications of the candidates and I hope they'll look past the fact that one candidate has an outstanding record of service as a pilot and as a prisoner of war and look instead at the judgment of the two candidates. So if all of this brouhaha helps focus the issue past the fact that one served in the military and one didn't and into the relevant qualities of judgment of the two respective candidates, then…then I'll be satisfied that it accomplished something. If it was just a brouhaha in the press and swiftboating uh, and an effort to steal the headlines back for John McCain, then uh, shame on all of us for getting wrapped up in it.

Dan Abrams: General Clark as always, thanks very much for coming on. Good to have you on. Appreciate it.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.