General Wesley Clark on Morning Joe
July 23, 2008
transcript by Reg NYC
(On tape)
Barack Obama: In his role as commander on the ground, not surprisingly, he wants to retain as much flexibility as possible in terms of accomplishing that goal. And what I emphasized to him was you know if I was, i-if I were in his shoes, I'd probably feel the same way. But my job as a candidate for President and a potential Commander in Chief extends beyond Iraq.
(end tape)
Joe Scarborough: Alright. With us now, we've got MSNBC analyst retired General Wesley Clark. General, thanks so much for being with us.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Joe.
Mika Brzezinski: Nice to see you.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good to be here. Hi, Mika.
Joe Scarborough: I'm a little confused by that statement. He s-said that of, of General Petraeus, 'Hey, if I were in your position, I would be saying the same thing.' It sort of made General Petraeus sound more like a lobbyist than a commander in the field who's really turned things around in Iraq. Explain what Barack Obama was getting at there.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think what he was saying was exactly right. If you're the Commander in Chief, you've got respo- worldwide responsibilities. And so, you've got to balance off the demands from one theater with the demands for another. And so, the commander on the ground says, 'Here's the risk. I want to minimize the risk by keeping more forces and keeping my timetable flexible." And the Commander in Chief says, 'I understand your concerns, but the risk, I'll take the risk, because I've got to balance it off with demands from another theater.' That's perfectly legitimate. That's exactly the way it's supposed to work, and I think Barack Obama had it just right.
Joe Scarborough: Isn't there a risk though if you pull troops out too quickly of a situation that's stabilizing possibly exploding?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, there's always that risk, and, and, and I think that as we go through this process you'll see that, that Barack Obama will watch that risk.
Mika Brzezinski: Hm.
Joe Scarborough: I-I'm sure-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And by the way, I want to say I'm not here as a spokesman for Barack Obama. I'm just here as-
Joe Scarborough: I'm sure you aren't.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -an independent analyst.
Joe Scarborough: He took him name tag off that said 'Official spokesman-'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: (chuckles)
Mika Brzezinski: I-
Joe Scarborough: '-for Barack Obama's campaign'.
Mika Brzezinski: It was a big 'Obama' pin.
Joe Scarborough: It was huge.
Mika Brzezinski: It was weird. He was wearing it-
Joe Scarborough: A pin with a ribbon. It was great.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Nice try.
(laughter)
Mika Brzezinski: -and then the flag.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But-
Mika Brzezinski: When he came in with the flag, I thought you know-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But, but I sat that because I do think he called it exactly right in the discussion. You know the President of the United States does not take orders from the regional commanders.
Joe Scarborough: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He listens to their recommendation and then he makes the decision because he has broader responsibilities. That's as it should be, and that's exactly what Barack Obama was-
Joe Scarborough: That is how it should be.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -was portraying.
Joe Scarborough: Of course, we have a, we have a long, long history of civilian leaders making decisions and military leaders following. I think I would, I think I would though obey whatever General Petraeus told me to do in Iraq. I'm being sarcastic.
Mika Brzezinski: Yeeeah.
Joe Scarborough: I still believe in civilian command.
Mika Brzezinski: Mm.
Joe Scarborough: Alright, so let's talk about the four big challenges facing the next Commander in Chief. We've got Iraq.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right.
Joe Scarborough: We've got Iran.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right.
Joe Scarborough: We've got Afghanistan. We've got Pakistan. President-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And you've got Israel and, and the Palestinians.
Mika Brzezinski: Absolutely.
Joe Scarborough: You, you, you also have that. So, you've got the next President of the United States calls you in on, you know, at, at the end of January and says, 'General, we just don't have enough forces to handle the four, five great challenges-'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right.
Joe Scarborough: '-facing us. What's my top priority? I don't want to hear about three or four different things. Tell me, what is the one thing I need to keep my eye, eyes on, mainly?'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Biggest problem is the resurgence of the Taliban and the linkage with Al Qaeda on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. So, here's the way I would answer you: You got to see the big picture movement. You've got to reduce the forces in Iraq, strengthen the capability to intervene in Afghanistan, work arrangements with Iran and encourage the Pakistanis to take care of their Northeast frontier.
Joe Scarborough: Okay. And so then, the next question from the President hopefully will be, 'That's great, General, but we can't invade Pakistan. Can we?'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Certainly not.
Joe Scarborough: Do we send Special Forces in there quietly to root out tri-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that you str-
Joe Scarborough: -Taliban warlords?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I- probably not. I don't think you can do that. You can't do it easily. You might have to do it at some point, but it would be a last resort. I think that-
Mika Brzezinski: Mm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -your better choice is to strengthen still the border between, the border defenses in Afghanistan, to really grip the border, to know who lives in that border area, who goes back and forth, reinforce the forces up there, strengthen the Afghan forces, put more NATO forces up there-
Joe Scarborough: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -and wall off Afghanistan more effectively from Pakistan.
Joe Scarborough: Tha- that is an extraordinarily difficult military-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure.
Joe Scarborough: -operation though-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
Joe Scarborough: -because of the mountainous-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure-
Joe Scarborough: -region.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But, but, but Joe, it's not as difficult as going into Pakistan with a bunch of people we don't know and trying to identify people and thrash through people's homes and, and estates and, and, and push them around and identify people who are resistant to us. That just enlarges the problem.
Joe Scarborough: Alright.
Mika Brzezinski: Yeah.
Joe Scarborough: Harold?
Harold Ford, Jr.: We asked Dr. Brzezinski a few minutes ago, General Clark, his c-, his thoughts on Iran. He indicated that he thought that it would be counterprod- it is counterproductive for this President and his administration to talk about military options. What's your attitude in light of putting into context of the next President's renewed focus on the Afghan- Afghanistan/Pakistan border? How do the Iranians play into that conversation or to your thought process?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, we're, we're engaged in several different operations against the Iranians right now. Nobody confirms it, but we've asked for money to, to strengthen democracy in Iran. We're threatening them. There are insurgencies operating inside Iran from both East and West that presumably someone associated with the United States has something to do with at some point, and the Iranians know this. And so, the Iranians would like to see us in trouble in Afghanistan, because that gives them an advantage. I think what you have to do is you have to turn around the relationship with Iran. We should've talked to them a long time ago. We need a serious dialog with Iran, not through the Europeans, but directly, and we need to help them find a way back into the world. Iran's not going to get everything it wants out of this, and it doesn't need nuclear weapons. But before it's too late, we really need a serious dialog with Iran, and, and that would be the approach that I would advocate. I don't think it's too late, but I think it's almost too late. And it's, you know, it's a pity that the, the current administration has spent three, four, five years fending off the calls for dialog with Iran and instead ratcheting up the military pressure. They, they've always felt that they didn't have enough leverage over Iran, but when you're the greatest economic power in the world, when you control all these inst- institutions, of course you've got leverage. We have oil technology. We have all the things Iran wants.
Mika Brzezinski: Hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We just have to find a way to, to, to build a relationship out of what we have.
Mika Brzezinski: We just had a report in to the NBC system from Jim Miklaszewski saying that troops movements out of Iraq and into Afghanistan will be the top of the agenda today when President Bush gets an update from top Defense and military officials at a tank briefing at the Pentagon. It's not expected to be a decision making briefing, but apparently all the pieces are falling into place for additional troops withdrawals from Iraq and more deployment into Afghanistan. And this all plays into what Barack Obama is saying. It's just now-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That-
Mika Brzezinski: -coming from-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's exactly right, but I, I think there's another, there's another strain of this that, that wasn't discussed. And we're talking about troops, but we're not going to win in Afghanistan without working the economy in Afghanistan, and that means giving people a chance for a job, a livelihood. It's putting agriculture back in place. And occasionally you get reports of these pomegranates that are growing in Afghanistan being flown out on military aircraft and, and marketed in the Middle East. And Afghanistan's famous for its pomegranates, but you can't make an industry out of flying them out on military aircraft, even though it may be a good thing for the few farmers who get it done. But what about growing wheat in Afghanistan, and they could grow wheat, and we could make Afghanistan a breadbasket for the rest of the world. And certainly that it, that w-we need food desperately-
Mika Brzezinski: Hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -in the world. Why not do that rather than simply pay for opium eradication.
Joe Scarborough: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We're putting about 200 million dollars a year into opium poppy eradication-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -in Afghanistan. But we don't have the alternative, and it's much better to have-
Joe Scarborough: Yeah, yeah, you need an alternative.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -an alternative. So, let's not just focus on the military-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -Here.
Joe Scarborough: Let, let, let me ask you about a question that Barack Obama's having to, to answer, and I'll a- I'll just ask you the question: Was the surge a good idea?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think that it was always true that we never had enough forces to do what we needed to do, but what we did need to do was always work the politics and the diplomacy in the region more.
Joe Scarborough: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And what's brought the violence down has not been only the additional troops. It's also been a fact that the Iranians decided that they had pushed us for enough, that it was in their interest to kind of reign in the violence. And also the Saudis managed to, and some of the other Sunni nations, managed to convince the Sunni tribes that the Americans aren't the real enemy. You're real enemy is going to come from Iran.
Joe Scarborough: So, so, was the surge a good-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So-
Joe Scarborough: -idea. Was the surge a good i- a good idea?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think, I think we go some benefit from the troops that went in there, but the surge has been a moving goal post from the time it was announced. So, I think that rather than talking about the surge, we really need to talk about what's the situation-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -in Iraq and how do we finish this.
Joe Scarborough: I want to talk about the surge.
Mika Brzezinski: I know you do.
Joe Scarborough: Was the surge a good idea?
Mika Brzezinski: Ugh, gosh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that it was always a good idea to put more troops in, and I supported putting more troops in when we did. But I also recognized at the time and as I've said, consistently since then: It's not about troops. It's really about politics. So, if the troops make it easier for the Iraqi politicians-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -to agree, that's fine.
Joe Scarborough: The key point - whe- whe- when the troops first went in there were a lot of people talking about the need for the troops to provide breathing space so politicians in Iraq could take a chance without feeling like they're going to walk outside the Parliament building and get blown up. Do you think the surge has provided that breathing space for political reconciliation.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I-I'll tell you one thing that we've done. I think the deployment of U.S. forces inside Iraq and the change in tactics has been very, very important and very useful.
Joe Scarborough: Petraeus has done-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And I think-
Joe Scarborough: -done it right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that the whole change in the strategy's good. I- I'm a big supporter of General Petraeus. I think he's a terrific officer. I think he's done a great job over there, but I would also tell you that I was a supporter of the people who were there before-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -George Casey and, and-
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: John Abizaid. They were simply following Rumsfeld's orders.
Joe Scarborough: Who never gave them the troops-
Harold Ford, Jr.: Great point, General.
Joe Scarborough: -they needed-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's exactly right.
Joe Scarborough: -from the very beginning of this war.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's exactly right.
Joe Scarborough: And of course, we talk about the surge. There were so many Generals that actually came on this network before the war started saying we need a lot of troops. A-again, I- Mika here I know you're frustrated, because I-
Mika Brzezinski: No, I-
Joe Scarborough: -actually-
Mika Brzezinski: I agree with this-
Joe Scarborough: -w-want to state the facts, which is the surge worked. It's, it's helped a great deal, but the bottom line is, the surge was required because Donald Rumslfeld decided was going to win the-
Mika Brzezinski: Well-
Joe Scarborough: -damn war on the cheap.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I, I, I think-
Joe Scarborough: -and there were tragic consequences to that miscalculation.
Mika Brzezinski: Well, I- This is not frustrating. I agree.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think, Joe, you're trying to make it either surge or no surge, and the point is the surge was one of several factors. The additional troops, the change in the tactics was one of several factors-
Joe Scarborough: I, I, no, I'm not trying to make-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that's reduced the violence.
Joe Scarborough: I'm not, I'm not trying saying it's an either/or, but the, the Sunni Awakening in the Anbar Province, Al Sadr-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It really had nothing to do with the surge. The Sunni Awakening had nothing to do with the surge.
Joe Scarborough: The Sunni Awakening in, in Anbar Province was an idea of Petraeus and other people on the ground there. It worked, and it was able to be sustained through the bombings of, of Sunni clerics and tribal leaders through 2007 and 2008-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think-
Joe Scarborough: -because we had enough troops there to let the Sunni tribal leaders know, 'You're going to be safe. We're going to be here. We're not going away. Al Qaeda is not going to be able to kill you, your sons and your extended family. We will be here.'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think, Joe-
Joe Scarborough: And, and to deny that is denying the obvious.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -that there's a little rewriting of history there, because actually the surge was about Baghdad, and it was not about Anbar Province. What worked in Anbar Province- Wait can I-
Joe Scarborough: But these operation-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let me just-
Joe Scarborough: These operations, General-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let me just explain-
Joe Scarborough: Hold on though.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The Saudis came in-
Joe Scarborough: They're not in a vacuum.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's- I know that.
Joe Scarborough: If you, if you, you, you have troops for the entire theater, if you have more troops, then you can bring more people out to Anbar while you get the surge troops going through neighborhoods in Baghdad. I just don't know what-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, they didn't bring more troops out to Anbar. What they did is the Saudis, basically in 2005, gave up on the U.S. policy, and they started working directly with the tribes. I went through the region in 2004 and 2005. I went through each of the Gulf States.
Joe Scarborough: Alright.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I talked to the leaders and they said, 'You Americans are crazy. You're ignoring the tribes.' The Saudis put money behind it.
Joe Scarborough: Alright.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They worked the tribes, and that helped bring the condition which made the Sunni Awakening possible.
Joe Scarborough: So, so General, you are crediting the Saudis with success in Western Iraq. You're crediting Iran with success in Eastern Iraq. I think that's giving short shrift for what the troops did.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No, I don't think so. I think the troops are a very, very important part of this, but I think you have to look at whole situation in there, Joe. It's-
Joe Scarborough: I, I am.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's the regional diplomacy. You've got- Iraq is a buffer state, and until you deal effectively with the Saudis and the Iranians, Iraq will be ripped apart by contending-
Joe Scarborough: Alright.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -rivalries.
Joe Scarborough: They're yelling in my ear.
Mika Brzezinski: (laughs)
Joe Scarborough: To be continued. That's why they started the music a minute and a half.
Mika Brzezinski: Aww.
Harold Ford, Jr.: Thank you, General.
Joe Scarborough: Alright General, thank you so much.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Joe.
Joe Scarborough: As always, it's great to have you.
Mika Brzezinski: Thank you, General. Thanks for coming.
