General Wesley Clark on The Alan Colmes Show

August 14, 2008
transcript by Reg NYC

Alan Colmes: I'm Al- I'm Alan Colmes. Always delighted to welcome to our microphones the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO General Wesley Clark. General Clark, how you doing?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'm good!

Alan Colmes: Thanks for being-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good to be with you, Alan.

Alan Colmes: Thanks for being with us. Before we get to the Georgia conflict, you know there are a lot of people who would like to see Barack Obama choose you as his running mate. Any chance of that happening?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You know, I just, I don't have a thing to say about it, honestly.

Alan Colmes: (laughs) Have you been vetted?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I just, I have no idea. I have no knowledge of any of it.

Alan Colmes: Really? You-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But-

Alan Colmes: It would be a pretty good job, right?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think it'd be wonderful to be Vice President of the United States in, in principle. I mean, you know, you have to- i-i-it's like any time you're in a high government position, you just- a lot of stuff gets thrown your way. I mean who would've expected that you'd have a crisis with Georgia (drop out) the Olympics. You know?

Alan Colmes: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to talk to you about that because I- we've had very different responses from John McCain and from Barack Obama. And the McCain camp says, 'We don't want to play politics with this.' By simply saying that they're playing politics since they're accusing Obama of not having the proper response. What do we know about what's going on there?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, i-i-it's a pattern of Russian behavior that dates back a long, long way. When the Cold War ended and the Russians were basically asked to leave Western Europe or Eastern Europe, Central Europe. They pulled their troops out of Germany and Poland and Hungary and Slovakia and eventually out of the Baltics grudgingly. They left little pockets of troops behind. Georgia wanted to be independent, but there were some areas of Georgia where the Russians had, had a grip on the population. There were some Russian garrisons there. They kept troops there. They, I think they basically fomented discontent with the idea of Georgian independence, and then they pretended to be there to protect. And this has festered for, gosh, 16, 17 years now, and we in the West never really got a grip on it. We knew that there was a potential issue here. You know, you- one of the criteria for joining NATO is that you resolve your territorial disputes, and pretty clearly they weren't resolved in the case of Georgia.

Alan Colmes: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And the Russians used these disputes as a way of hanging on to their, it's their grip on these areas that they used to own and control that now are independent.

Alan Colmes: Will we-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And-

Alan Colmes: Do- have we-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -this is going to happen.

Alan Colmes: Have we leaned too much toward Georgia or given them too many assurances to make them think that they could've done things that maybe they shouldn't've done? 'Cause there was provocative behavior on their part.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you could argue that the administration was a-a little too accommodating and a little too in awe of the Rose Revolution there in Georgia and didn't recognize the potential These countries are democracies, but they're not American-style pluralistic societies. They don't have all the institutions of American democracy and, Alan, those institutions take time, generations to develop. People have to be experienced with them and educated in them, and you've got to bring young people up through them. So, you can't expect too much too soon, and there's corruption still-

Alan Colmes: Hm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -in Georgia. There are other issues in Georgia. It's just the way Eastern Europe is and Georgia is.

Alan Colmes: Mm. What, what's your reaction to the various responses? I know you're supporting Barack Obama as I am. What- how do you feel about the way each candidate has responded to this crisis?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I've sent some ideas in to Barack Obama's foreign policy team. So, obviously, you know, I'm, I- I am sort of committed that way. I- I've read McCain's statements, and he's got ideas in those statements. They're not all wrong. But I do think that you have to (drop out) a little tempered in what you say at times like this, because first of all, the real solution to this is European and, and, and American unity. It's Transatlantic unity, because if you really work together with the Europeans on this, there's no way that the Russians are going to feel that they can get away with causing problems and annexing another country. They, they got too many other issues that are at risk for them in this.

Alan Colmes: M-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: If you allow a split to develop between the United States and Europe, then that gives an opening for the Russians to exploit that split. So, I think one of the things that we didn't see very clearly from the Bush administration or from John McCain is a, is the appeal to NATO, is the sensitivity to European requirements there and I don't mean to be pusillanimous. I just think that it, it's what we found during the Kosova campaign that-

Alan Colmes: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -there was no single bombing target that was worth breaking NATO unity for. And, and that's kind of the way it is here. If you can hold the Transatlantic unity together, you're going to win in this case.

Alan Colmes: What's the issue in terms, in terms of NATO. I mean, the Ukraine wants to be part of NATO, Georgia-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Now there, it's (drop out) but you know NATO has a collective defense o-obligation. These counties have to meet a number of me-membership criteria to be admitted to NATO. I'm not sure that Ukraine and, and Georgia have met those criteria. And in addition, you've got to make sure that your European allies are willing to belly up to the bar and accept-

Alan Colmes: Mm.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -the responsibilities. If NATO had been a member of- i-if Georgia had been a member o-of NATO, first of all, we hope that they would never've taken any provocative actions with respect to South Ossetia.

Alan Colmes: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But we would've already been in conflict with the Russians with their over-flights, their shooting down drones and, and their cyber-warfare against, against Georgia. There would've already been a, a comeback response on that. So, this is a very ticklish situation. It's going to take a lot of U.S. leadership and jawboning to bring the Europeans onboard and have them comfortable with the Georgian policies and to have Georgia understand its responsibility as a NATO member.

Alan Colmes: Well finally, what, what do we know about Putin and what can we expect from him in the next couple of years?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Oh, I think you can expect more trouble, more testing, more probing. Putin is man who was educated in the KGB way of looking at the world, which is: The world's a chess board and the more squares you can control, the more powerful your country is. So, he just wants the empire back. I, I, I read these statements from people who say, 'Oh, this has to do with Kosova,' or something like this. This doesn't really. This is basically a man and his power ministries who are- they, they are- they feel betrayed by Gorbachev. They feel like Yeltsin really let them down. They let the Soviet Union collapse and, and all those good things that were there be disrespected. They want to build a new Russia back that has the same right to demand respect in the world that the Soviet Union had.

Alan Colmes: Uh-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And-

Alan Colmes: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -it has nothing to do with any specific issue. So, you're going to see it come back again. It'll be pressure on Ukraine, more threats against Estonia, demands for access to Kaliningrad. There'll be more problems in Georgia. He's going to resist taking the troops out of Georgia, I as- I'm sure. And, and, and he'll demand concessions from the Georgians. He wants to set the Georgians against their leader.

Alan Colmes: We ha-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: He wants to set-

Alan Colmes: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Europe against the United States.

Alan Colmes: But we have a lot of clout with which to deal with Putin because there's lots of stuff he wants from us. So, we, we have some sway there.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely. You know, Putin wants respect from the West, and he wants his economic engagements. And they want to sell gas to the West, and they don't want the West to develop alternative sources of transport- transporting oil and gas from the 'Stans or from some other part of the world. So, they want things from the West. There's an interrelationship there. We just have to help him play by the rules.

Alan Colmes: Hey General, if, if, you know, if you're not the Vice President for Obama, would there be a place for you in an Obama administration? You think you might have a formal role coming up if he's the President?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I- Al, I just wouldn't know. I really don't know. But I'm in the business community. I travel a lot to Europe. I'm accessible, and you know I still want to help the country any way I-

Alan Colmes: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -can and help the people who are in office. I think this is an issue for Americans. It's not a partisan issue.

Alan Colmes: Sure.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And we have to get the policy right for the country.

Alan Colmes: I appreciate your coming on the show as always, General. Thank you so much for your time tonight.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you, Alan.

Alan Colmes: Appreciate it.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good to be with you.

Alan Colmes: Alright, Sir. That is General Wesley Clark former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO...