General Wesley Clark with Jon Elliott on "This Is America"

August 21 2008
Transcription by Melange

Jon Elliot: Welcome back with us America. I'm Jon Elliot and I'm delighted to welcome this particular guest to our program. I first had the privilege of talking to General Wesley Clark five years ago in August of 2003 and when he was ... the rumor was he was thinking about running for president at the time and I remember saying to him, ‘well I'm not going to ask you the question because Andy Card told us nobody markets a product in August' so uh, the gentleman that I really do believe is qualified to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Secretary of Defense, Vice President and President of the country and there aren't too many people like that. General Clark, how are you, sir?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I'm fine. Thank you for those kind words, Jon.

Jon Elliot: Well, they're true sir, they really are. I've asked you on the program because I'm concerned about the sudden flair up in ... in Georgia and the response we received from John McCain and all of a sudden the focus seems to be away from Iran being the next great war frontier and uh, now there's a focus in Georgia. Are we in such a position that we are so weakened because of these two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq General, that we can't even contemplate any type of action ... and perhaps you would suggest that we shouldn't?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well I would say it's far too early to be considering military force or thinking about things like that in the case of Georgia. But, you know the larger context of your question – yes, um we are stretched thin. And in particular, the war in Iraq has eroded America's relationship with our traditional allies in Europe. Um, we've neglected NATO in going to Iraq and then we thrust NATO into the problems in Afghanistan in such a way that NATO itself is deeply committed and very concerned about the erosion of security in Afghanistan and now this uh, option comes as ... this problem comes along with Georgia and it just stresses everything. So, it's not a matter of military weakness and military force. There are plenty of Air Force planes, plenty of Navy ships. There are missiles and bombs; not a lot of ground troops, but we shouldn't be talking about military force. What we really need to be talking about is Western resolve. The nations of the West. The United States, our European allies and NATO come together and insist that the Russians pull back. We're making the first steps on that and we had our NATO meeting yesterday and some pretty tough talk came out of it, but we'll see whether uh, the nations of the West hang together in the crisis in succeeding days. It's going to be tough.

Jon Elliot: Is it Russia just beating its chest wanting to be recognized again as a superpower and sending a commercial that we're back the way we were before? Is this ... is this what this was about or uh was this picking on shall we say the one of the former Soviets that leaned towards the most democratic uh, government and picking them out and saying ‘if we can do this to you, don't even think of going there'?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well it's a complicated series of things, Jon. First, the Russian power ministries and I've concluded that men like Vladimir Putin who grew up through the KGB – they've never been reconciled with the breakup of the Soviet Union. They still view it as a failure, as treachery uh, Gorbachev betrayed them, people were weak, the European ... eastern European communists weren't tough enough to crack down on their own people at the crucial times in 1989 and ‘90 and so forth. So um, they're unrepentant. They want ... they lust for their <inaudible> back. Now that doesn't mean that they're hellbent on taking it at all costs. They recognize the reality of the world that they're in but they don't like NATO's encroachment in their part of Eastern Europe and of course the closer we get to Russia's borders, the less they like it and the more they feel penned in. They've got ... they've got a grip; they've got traction in these countries. They border of course Estonia and they've got a large Russian minority in Latvia and they bombard these countries with propaganda. They demand from Lithuania unimpeded access to the So ... Russian enclave in Kaliningrad, located between Poland and Lithuania on the Baltic. Most Americans aren't even aware of it, but it's actually a piece of Russia that was um, seized and occupied ... occupied, seized and legitimated during and after World War II. And then, they've got troops in Moldova

Jon Elliot: Oops, I think we just lost General Clark.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Hi Jon. I don't know what happened. I'm on a ... I'm on my Blackberry but it's not moving. It just decided it would shut itself off at the crucial moment.

Jon Elliot: <laughter> Well, no worries. We're back with General Clark. We were talking about the propaganda that Russia's able to emanate through Lithuania and Latvia and Estonia and whatnot. I'm wondering if this is a ...

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They can cause trouble. They don't want NATO there.

Jon Elliot: Does this have anything to do with us, with Bush deciding to put the anti-missile defense systems in Poland and in Eastern Europe? Because it's hard to understand why they would be mained ... maintained against Iran when they're really so close to the Russian frontier.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well if you look at the map of the world, you'd see that uh, they are actually on a direct line between Iran and the United States.

Jon Elliot: They are?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah. Uh-huh. I mean, if you look at a map of the globe and the great circle route between Iran and ...

Jon Elliot: Oh, I see, so it would be the trajectory

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: the United States, it goes right over Poland, but um ... and there's not enough there to make any appreciable difference against a Soviet attack and they don't have the sophistication to do that anyway. So the Russians know this. This is a propaganda ploy. They're using it as leverage to beat up their neighbors in Eastern Europe.

Jon Elliot: When you and I talk, which we do about once a year ... once every six months, I ask you for what's really happening in Iraq and what's going to happen in Iraq and every single year uh, since the beginning of this disastrous war, you've been spot on. Um, I don't like to say ‘well now we're winning'. I don't know that “winning” or “prevailing” is the right word. Um, are things really going well now, to the point where we could now start to turn this over to the Iraqis with the confidence that they will be able to maintain some sort of semblance of an organization ... organized government?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes and no. Yes, they're going much better militarily. Uh, but it's not clear that the Iraqis politically are going to be able to make the compromises and resolve the lingering distrust and suspicion that dominate in this society sufficiently to be able to maintain the peace if the Americans were to withdraw completely. Um, that's the risk. I believe we need to get out of there. But I say no because much of what's going to happen in Iraq is dominated by what might happen in Iran

Jon Elliot: Right.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: and there's still some chance that the Israeli government will strike Iran's nuclear capacity in the next few months, maybe even before the election.

Jon Elliot: That would be something that would play well into McCain's hands, I would imagine.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think it would ... I think, essentially you know the two parties are different parties. I think we've talked about this before, but

Jon Elliot: Yes, we have.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: The Democratic party ... it's about justice and fairness and compassion and seeing that each person has a full, equal opportunity in life to achieve his or her potential. The Republican party addresses the same things, but what really motivates the base seems to be national security um ... and, and sort of the American dominance that we attained at the end of the Cold War. It's threat and response. So the two parties are different and John McCain is able to play to his base very strongly when national security issues arise, whereas what we'd like to be talking about as Democrats is ... we'd like to be talking about the economy and how to get ... how to raise the minimum wage and create better jobs and deal with the climate change issues and move toward energy independence and uh, make sure the every American is treated fairly and make sure that the Justice Department hasn't been fatally compromised politically and make sure that these people who are going against the Congress and are in contempt are served and are dealt with appropriately and so on. There's a whole range of these issues that motivate the Democratic base in a similar but different way than they motivate the Republican base.

Jon Elliot: Yeah, and John McCain seems to be about the bombs and bayonet-type diplomacy and yet I look back to Bosnia and see the marvelous job that you did, sir in making sure that the Bosnian situation was brought under control with the minimum amount of loss of life but yet with the people in the White House prevailing and the bad guys starting to get taken to justice and for that I think the world owes you a great debt. And when we look at things like Georgia and Iran on the cusp, I can't help think that your star should have risen very high in the sky to be considered for the Vice Presidential ticket. So, the only thing I guess I could ask is, do you have any plans to be in Springfield, Illinois anytime in the near future?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No. And I don't think I'm being considered as Vice President. I mean, no one's ever said anything about it. It's been press speculation only, but I'm honored by your remarks. I will tell you this, though about the Balkans, we cannot forget as Democrats, that we did use force.

Jon Elliot: Yes we did.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We used it in bringing a resolution to the Bosnian crisis. We used it in stopping ethnic cleansing in Kosovo so um,

Jon Elliot: But that force was controlled by you. It was you leading that force.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was force as a last resort

Jon Elliot: It was the appropriate use of force

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But anytime you use force, it's controversial and when I was the NATO Commander, we did everything possible to avoid using force against the Serbs in their ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, but ultimately that was the last resort. It came down to the last resort. A lot of people in the Pentagon disagreed. They said, under no circumstances would they use force there, and so forth. Um, and so whenever you use force, it's going to be controversial but US diplomacy without the backing of our ultimate arbiter, as a last, last, last resort, it ... it would be missing something.

Jon Elliot: Yeah.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And so I think we you know, as Democrats, have to be tough minded enough to recognize that the Armed Forces are an integral part of American security policy and we as Democrats, we have to be a full-service party. We can't just be a party that's about taking care of people – including veterans, which we're really strong on; we also have to be a party that's about protecting America and standing up for our country.

Jon Elliot: Yeah, I think that's a ...

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And that may entail, as a last, last, last resort, employment of the Armed Forces.

Jon Elliot: Well, I think General, that as Democrats, we are very strong in our belief of a very strong Department of Defense, we just don't like a Department of Offense. And, I think anyone in this country – Democrat, Republican, Independent, wants our country to be protected and wants our country to be strong and applauds the sacrifice and the service that our brave men and women provide. And they're there as a failsafe and as you say, they're there also to be that steel hand in the velvet glove that in the event that diplomacy doesn't work, then they're there. I have one last question for you. I don't know if you saw McCain – he was at his forum which he typically likes, this town hall meeting and this woman was going on about, with all of these wars going on, we're going to be running out of troops and we need to reinstate the draft and he agreed with her um, in New Mexico he said, “I agree with everything that you're saying.” And I saw this and I'm saying, ‘did I just hear him say he is agreeing to reinstate the draft?' Would that ... would that maybe the worst thing that could happen to us as a nation right now, sir?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think it would be ... first of all, I'd be surprised if that's what he meant to say. And

Jon Elliot: He says things that he doesn't mean all the time, General.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I didn't hear him answer that question. I'd be very surprised because if you want to motivate a youth vote, it's the best way to do it, but it won't come out in your favor.

Jon Elliot: <laughter> You're right.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You know, the Republican party are the people who sponsored the volunteer military – it was a Nixon plan, and it was designed to end the draft because the draft ... it brought foreign policy issues onto campus in a way that was very painful for an administration that was struggling to find a way out of Vietnam.

Jon Elliot: Of course.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So the last thing I think, that the Republican party would want is to implement a draft right now. But it's true – the Armed Forces are desperately in need of manpower. We do need more men and women in the United States Army and, and Marine Corps. Um, we're meeting our recruiting objectives but it's a real struggle. It's very costly and um, I'm always torn because um, you know I disagreed with going into Iraq. I thought it was a mistake but I strongly support our men and women in uniform.

Jon Elliot: Of course.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I support our generals who do what the Commander in Chief tells them to do and um, and we need a great military to keep this country strong and safe.

Jon Elliot: And I'm uh, equally torn as I think most people are in this country. We ... I just, I find it so much irony with you, with all of the ribbons and all of the bars on your chest and all of the experience that you've had and I look at the Bush administration at the time when they chose to go to war and the only one who was opposed to it was General Powell, another gentleman who has a lot of medals and stars and bars and ribbons on his chest. And really the only two people who have experienced the horrors of war and know about war were the two against going into this and I think that speaks volumes. And as always sir, it's a tremendous delight and a thrill to speak with you and I wish you nothing but the best and I look for an appointment in the Obama administration just as quickly and as lofty as they will possibly put you, sir.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well you're nice to suggest that and thank you very much for the opportunity to be on with you, Jon.

Jon Elliot: It's always good to speak with you General Clark. Thank you so very much.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.

Jon Elliot: Bye-bye now. General Wesley Clark. We're taking a break and coming back.