General Wesley Clark on Morning Joe
September 24. 2008
transcript by Reg NYC
Joe Scarborough: Hey, welcome back to Morning Joe. We're coming up on the top of the hour, but-
Mika Brzezinski: Just about.
Joe Scarborough: -first, let's bring in General Wesley Clark.
Mika Brzezinski: Oh, thank you for coming in, General.
Joe Scarborough: General, thanks for being with us.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good to be with you.
Joe Scarborough: You know, yesterday we had- I'm sorry, you want- What do you say, Chris?
Mika Brzezinski: Well-
Joe Scarborough: Well, we can do this in a couple minutes, like-
Mika Brzezinski: We've got two minutes.
Joe Scarborough: What's Chris talking about? We've got a couple minutes before we get to news.
Mika Brzezinski: Well, I think he wanted to reset.
Joe Scarborough: Then we'll bring General Wesley Clark back in. I'll reset in a minute.
Mika Brzezinski: Okay.
Joe Scarborough: So yesterday, the New York Times had a front page article talking about how Pakistan's volatile and how some extremists could take that country over and the nuclear weapons they possess. How dangerous is the situation in Pakistan today?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it's ver- very dangerous for their government in Pakistan. I think the Pakistan military has control over the nuclear sites, but we don't have any guarantee, so far as I know, and we don't have any U.S. backup, so far as I know, for those nuclear sites.
Joe Scarborough: Are there extremists elements in the Pakistani Army? Are those elements growing in power?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you have to assume that there are extremist elements in there. We know that they've worked the Inter-Services Intelligence for a long time, and it's been infiltrated by extremists. How far they've gotten into the nuclear business, we have no way of knowing. But, yes, this is a high-risk situation.
Joe Scarborough: I-I- Let's keep going back to this question, because it seems to me it's going to be the question that's going to be haunting the next President. If you have Al Qaeda and the Taliban reconstituting themselves in Pakistan, over the border of Afghanistan-
Mika Brzezinski: Exactly.
Joe Scarborough: -what do we do?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You've got to strengthen the ability to interdict along that border. That means using a lot of sensors, maybe putting some more troops up, and knowing who lives there. Strengthen interdiction, and then you've got to use diplomacy.
Mika Brzezinski: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And you've got to work very carefully with Pakistan. I don't, I don't advocate enlarging the war. And so, I don't think that you solve this problem by mounting a larger invasion into the Northwest frontier provinces.
Joe Scarborough: Is it a mistake for us to ever send any troops across the border?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Maybe there may be a time to do that. I'd never say never, but I don't think that just the, the principle, 'Hey, let's just make this thing larger and go after them and clean them out,' you don't do that very well. Pakistan can do that, but only after it-
Joe Scarborough: But they're not.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -gets the- It's got to muster it's authority-
Joe Scarborough: We're giving them billions and billions-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah.
Joe Scarborough: -of dollars to clean-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's a tough problem.
Joe Scarborough: -to, to clean up Al Qaeda-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They, they've got-
Joe Scarborough: -and the Taliban and they're not doing it.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But if you believe that a democracy's a good thing - and apparently we did, because we didn't want Musharraf in there.
Mika Brzezinski: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We forced the democracy. Let's give them a chance to get their act together.
Joe Scarborough: Is that the same mistake we made in Iran in 1979?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Smells a lot like it to me.
Mika Brzezinski: Oh, we have-
Joe Scarborough: Mm.
Mika Brzezinski: We should talk about Iran. We'll do that-
Joe Scarborough: Yeah.
Mika Brzezinski: -after news, because-
Joe Scarborough: Big mistake.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Big mistake.
Joe Scarborough: And also Mika tomorrow is going to be having breakfast with Ahmadinejad. These are the sort of things that-
Mika Brzezinski: Okay.
Joe Scarborough: -people do like Mika. After news, we're going to ask you to give Mika the question she should ask the President of Iran.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We'll do it.
(cut to news)
Joe Scarborough: ...back with General Wesley Clark. General, what is the one question that should be asked of Ahmadinejad?
Mika Brzezinski: I've got my notepad.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah, let's, 'Mr. President, why don't you open up Iran and let the International Atomic Energy Agency complete its inspection there?'
Mika Brzezinski: But they've done a fairly thorough one or there- you say that mystery's evolved.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Every time they go they find more odd and ends. Let them talk to anybody they want to talk to.
Mika Brzezinski: How long should it go on though?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let it go on until it's satisfied. Let-
Mika Brzezinski: Uh huh.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Let Mohamed ElBaradei give the report. Why not? What do, what do they, what do they got to hide? I mean, if they open up and they're given a clean bill of health, then maybe they can stop this crazy standoff with the rest of the world.
Mika Brzezinski: Mm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Maybe people will, will respect them. Maybe they'll get investment, trade, tourism, travel - all the things that make a modern economy integrated. Why does he want to put a wall up with the rest of the world by maintaining-
Mika Brzezinski: Okay.
Dylan Ratigan: It's a country with a great history.
Mika Brzezinski: I'll give it a try.
Dylan Ratigan: They have to forget, the modern politics are disastrous, but the in Persia, the history in Tehran, it's a beautiful actual part of the world if you look at its architecture-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right.
Dylan Ratigan: -and its history that has been unfortunately now tailored as a, a, a, a despot, a-appropriately so. They, they, they chose that path against us and it's why I agree with you, General.
Joe Scarborough: The question is this: th-th- How does it serve the Mullahs who really run the country to continue to have Ahmadinejad in power?
Dylan Ratigan: Yeah.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well-
Joe Scarborough: He, he, he's obviously a puppet.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They've held elections, and maybe he won't retain power. What he needs, what he seems to need-
Joe Scarborough: Wa-wa-wa-wait, wait. They've held elections, but they don't let reformers run in those elections.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, they don't, and they don't have freedom of speech and so forth. They have the form of- to claim a democracy. But how does it help Iran to have Ahmadinejad there? He's representing the conservative elements in Iran, and I'm sure there are people in Iran who actually believe that the United States is the Great Satan. And there are people there that support him. There are a lot who don't.
Joe Scarborough: But, but, but aren't the, aren't the Mullahs Machiavellian? They are not the wild-eyed radicals that we saw in 1979. They've figured out how to hold onto power.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure, but that doesn't mean that they don't have radical ideas a- or that they agree with us. They're conservative in their own way. They want power.
Joe Scarborough: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They want their grip. They don't want change, and they certainly don't want to let change agents in. So, Ahmadinejad's pose against the West and the effort to set up the conditions to gain nuclear weaponry serve a certain purpose in keeping this conflict alive.
Dylan Ratigan: They believe it's in their self-interest.
Joe Scarborough: Yeah.
Dylan Ratigan: They believe it's in Iran- forget us. They believe it's in their self interest clearly by their behavior to be hostile to the United States - at least the people that are in the leadership role there. They believe that it's in their-
Mika Brzezinski: Absolutely.
Dylan Ratigan: -self-interest to be hostile to us, to-
Mika Brzezinski: And to drag out an element of mystery.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, well lots of countries gain from having enemies abroad.
Dylan Ratigan: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I mean, it's the basic-
Mika Brzezinski: Well.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -sort of play. You talk about Machiavelli. That's the basic Machiavelli play.
Joe Scarborough: Exactly.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: 'Stay with me at home, because we're in danger from these enemies abroad.'
Unknown: That's no good.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's used by many, many different political factions.
Joe Scarborough: Le-le-let's talk a couple other countries: Iraq right now, things seem to be going fairly well. Dexter Filkins wrote an extraordinary book, extraordinary article this week in The New York Times saying he didn't recognize the place.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right. Well-
Joe Scarborough: Let's hope.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's-
Joe Scarborough: Let's pray.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's fragile.
Joe Scarborough: It's fragile. Let's hope and pray that stability, that stability remains. If in fact it does, how quickly can we get our troops out and what, where do we, where do we go next?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well-
Joe Scarborough: What's our next move on the big chess board?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think you have to redeploy from Iraq. I think you have to have a success strategy for Afghanistan. And that means an economic strategy, and that means accepting a decentralization of the country. Afghanistan has to have some political nurturing. It has to have some economic support. It's not just a matter of putting three or four more brigades of troops in there, but you do have to work the border region. Now, all that has to be done with an idea of saving money, because resources are not unlimited. And that's where you come back to the economy and the efforts we need to kick start our own economy.
Joe Scarborough: Right. Now, now, Dr. Brzezinski's concerned that if we ramp up troops in Afghanistan that we may be making the same mistake that the Russians made in 1980.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that's a legitimate concern. Without real economic opportunities there, people put a son in the Taliban, they put a son with the government, and they keep their family alive and they struggle. We should-
Dylan Ratigan: So, how do you do that? How do, how do you bring smart capitalism, which is what works- We've proven it out. We've also proven that stupid capitalism recently is a disaster, but we'll put that aside for the moment. How do you bring smart capitalism into a culture like that where there's good decision making, good risk taking, good innovation, good opportunity, a place that has the history that you know better than I do certainly, a his- There's a drug trade there. There's a lot of factors that are easy money in that country-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think you have to have a near-term and a far-term plan. I think the near-term plan is you do three things for Afghanistan: Number one, you make it a food exporter. So, you pay a bonus to buy Afghan wheat.
Dylan Ratigan: Pay them extra money for the food.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely, and let them (inaudible).
Dylan Ratigan: Just give them money for food.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely.
Joe Scarborough: And let them sell it out.
Dylan Ratigan: Right.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Number two, they've got a lot of natural gas.
Dylan Ratigan: Mm hm.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: And number three, they sit on a critical strategic route. So, use that, decentralize, give the local warlords a piece of the pie.
Dylan Ratigan: So, now my only vulnerability is the easy money of selling drugs.
Mika Brzezinski: Mm. (laughs)
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's right.
Dylan Ratigan: How do we get rid of that?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: That's the near-term plan.
Mika Brzezinski: No, that's-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You'll drive it out if you pay the right price for agriculture.
Joe Scarborough: For food. Alright.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Right. And then-
Joe Scarborough: General, thank you so-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You got to work the far-term.
Joe Scarborough: Greatly appreciate you being with us-
Mika Brzezinski: Thanks for the questions.
Joe Scarborough: -as always.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Very good to be with you.
Joe Scarborough: Love you stopping by.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Give him a tough time, Mika.
Mika Brzezinski: Oh, great.
Joe Scarborough: Yes, somebody has to.
Mika Brzezinski: I'll do my best.
