General Wesley Clark on Chicago Public Radio
March 17, 2006
Transcript by Reg NYC
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Jerome McDonnell: Talks resume today in Vienna on the future of Kosovo. Kosovar Albanians want independence, but Serbia fears that separating the region would put ethnic Serbs in danger. Russia and China, two of Serbia's staunchest allies on the Security Council announced this week that they would not block an independence vote. Today on the program, we'll hear three perspectives on the future of Kosovo. In a moment I'll talk with the man who led the 1999 NATO bombing of Serbia, General Wesley Clark, and later in the hour, I'll talk with the Chicago Council General of Serbia and Montenegro and with the representative from Kosovo to the US. But first, let's hear from Wesley Clark.
Wesley Clark is the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. He's also been out front on independence for Kosovo. He wrote several op-eds promoting the idea of starting final status talks that would lead to eventual independence and Kosovo's been overseen by the international peacekeepers since the war with Yugoslavia, but things have not gone smoothly. There are bouts of violence. Serbs in Roma live in fear of Kosovar Albanians who make up 93% of the population. There are also accusations that Kosovar Albanians are involved in drug smuggling, human trafficking and have some ties to Al Qaeda. Earlier this year Kofi Annan released a report saying that Kosovo was failing to create a multi-ethnic society and protect the rights of minorities.
I asked Wesley Clark if an independent Kosovo could really protect Serb citizens.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think that's difficult, because this is not a police state, and therefore people's feelings do come out in Kosovo or as they say 'Kos-O-va'. And they've had a difficult time really since the Serb resurgence there in the late 1980's, and so there is a lot of ill will. But it's time for them to put that behind them. I think everybody has to recognize when you're looking at Kosovo right now, that there's not going to be the kind of progress we want to see until the political issue is resolved. Investment can't come in, and communities don't have an incentive to work together. So really, we can't, we can't get the cart before the horse. The political leadership in the west has to take the lead in moving this issue forward. The Kosovars will follow.
Jerome McDonnell: Why don't communities have incentive to work together?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because when the Serbs for a long time, and I believe still are, being under the table reimbursed by Belgrade. And the Kosovars are playing to their own sense of historical uniqueness. And so, until there's a clear shot at an independent Kosova and the options are closed off and the discussions put behind them, the groups have a tendency to pull apart rather than work together. It's just the way these, these situations turn out.
Jerome McDonnell: Why is the timing right for now to be the time for the independence push?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because the nations in Europe want to get the occupation behind them, and because after four or five years and two years after these, or a year and a half after these destructive conflicts in Mitrovica, it, it, I think people recognize that this is a situation which is not stable. It's time to move on the ground.
Jerome McDonnell: Some of the people who are in power in Kosovo now, how do you feel about that leadership? It seems like, well we just had Ibrahim Rugova die. He was the long-time nonviolent leader in Kosovo, and we had another leader that went off to defend himself against war crimes charges at the war crime tribunal. The new Prime Minister is a, a former leader in the Kosovo Liberation Army, which a lot of people would look at, you know, in today's point of view and say, 'gosh that, that looks like a terrorist organization.' How do you feel about the leadership in Albania?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think the loss of Ibrahim Rugova was a, was a real tragedy for Kosova. He was a young guy, and to have lost him is a real shame. I think the, the status of the Kosova Liberation Army is, is ambivalent at best. You know, I've been hearing these charges about it being a terrorist organization since 1997, principally from Russians, and when I asked for the proof and the- the proof that it was connected to the Mujahideen and so forth, none was forthcoming. What I would tell you is: there are a lot of Albanian-Americans who have worked for that organization and even fought there to try to resolve the problem of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. And so, I, I don't consider it a terrorist organization in the way that the term is used today, and, and all I can tell you is that we tried to disband that organization.
We put together a Kosova Protective Corps. When I was there, we tried to give the people some other reason for association. I think it's time to put the past behind them. Whatever their role in the KLA or non-KLA, they need to move into a more modern outlook today in Kosova.
Jerome McDonnell: So you think that former KLA leadership is okay in the leadership of Kosovo for independence.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It depends on what they did. I mean, if the KLA leadership was involved in war crimes then they should be indicted for that. If they weren't then it should move- they should, they should move on.
Jerome McDonnell: How does an independent Kosovo better protect the Serb minorities? Why does that make it a better situation for them?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yeah, that's a good question, because you know, there's not going to be an adequate level of protection of the Serb minority until people in Kosova understand it's their collective responsibility to do so. The Serbs are living in some pretty restricted areas right now. There is a significant degree of threat against them. And similarly north of the Ibar River, the Albanians aren't welcome, and there's a threat against them. So, I think that this is a matter of bridge-building and confidence-building, as well as helping to structure institutions and protect those institutions like the Police Corps that stood up, that is a multi-ethnic institution but that's had trouble assigning officers in areas where they have the, quote, "wrong ethnicity". So, I think that, you know, there are a number of specific steps that can be made.
Jerome McDonnell: You're Listening to WORLDVIEW from Chicago Public Radio. I'm Jerome McDonnell talking with Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO and during the Kosovo operation of 1999, and we're talking about Kosovo and the final status negotiations for the region.
What do you make of the people who say, 'You know what? Kosovo sets a, a big example,' and even within the region a lot of people would like a different situation - people in Macedonia, people in Montenegro, in Nagorno Karabakh, and Abkhasia, and Chechnya, you know, not to say of people on the other side of the world who think, you know, independence in Taiwan or Tibet would be a good idea, or Kurdistan. Does Kosovo set an example that would just be, you know, bad for global issues?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think in general that, you know, there has to be a presumption against border changing to resolve political problems. Border changing doesn't work well. Didn't work well between India and the creation of Pakistan in 1948, and look at that situation today. So, it has to be the exception, not the rule. In the case of Kosova, for now, after having been there and met people on both sides and looked at the bitterness and looked at the state of Serbia today and others, I have to say that this is the exception. It's an exception that has to be made. Right now, it's simply not possible to put Kosova back into Serbia.
Jerome McDonnell: While that may not be possible, is it really the- is independence the best idea, or is that the seed for the next conflict? A lot of people look at the people who are in power now in Serbia, and they say, 'well these are the good guys. These are the guys who kicked out Slobodan Milosevic and got it done, and now an independent Kosovo puts a lot of pressure on them from the craziest kind of Serb nationalists get to, get to play politics with that and kick them out, and the next thing you know, you've got problems again.'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I, you know, I think the way you've characterized it, it's a little bit overdrawn. For example, I don't think it was exactly Mr. Kostunica whose idea it was to kick Milosevic out. He's held a pretty, pretty fervent nationalism. He's been pretty reluctant to open up the crimes of the Milosevic era to the world. The Serbs are still protecting Mladic and perhaps Karadzic as well. And so, I have to be concerned about the political modernization of Serbia. Given where they are and their lack of modernization, and their lack of real accommodation into Western Europe, then yes, I think it's not possible to put Kosova back in there at this point. And in not- It's the contrary of the thesis that you're propounding, Jerome. It's not that this is going to put the good guys under greater pressure. This is going to invalidate the ideas of the bad guys who still have influence and power. Until that cycle is completed, we can't begin the reassembly, with economic measures and other measures, that will probably take place at some future time in the Balkans.
Jerome McDonnell: is there anything you think you can offer Serbia that would have it cooperate. Are there carrots here that would make Serbian politicians want to turn over more War Crimes Tribunal suspects and cooperate with the independent Ko-
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I, I hope the leaders in Serbia and the people in Serbia recognize that they're part of Europe and their future has to rest with Europe, and ultimately they're going to have to cooperate and join European institutions. You know, back seven years ago when we were working against Milosevic, there was talk that maybe Serbia would form a, a tripartite alliance with Belarus and Russia, and they would have a political union. And that's just so much talk, and I think it's mostly faded. Serbia is a Western country. Before World War II, Belgrade University, the classes were taught in French and German, and everybody spoke French and German, and to some extent English, who was a pre-World War II graduate of Belgrade University. This idea that Serbia's part of the East was, it was transplanted into Serbia. It's time for Serbia to resume its rightful place with Western Europe, and I think that's the greatest incentive that, that any Serb leader could possible have.
Jerome McDonnell: What do you think about the idea of a partial partition of Kosovo or a some kind of extremely large autonomy for Serb sections, for the Serb holy sites there that they're very protective of and, and just aren't going to want to let go of?
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think there's reason to, to have to have some kind of special arrangements for the Serb monasteries. But a partition of Kosova? No. I wouldn't accept that. I wouldn't want to say that there's just two parts of Kosova, there's the part north of the Ibar River and the part south of the Ibar and the part north belongs to the Serbs. That's what was rejected. To follow that line of argumentation means you've got to then go into Serbia to the Presevo Valley, and you've got to carve out the Presevo Valley, which has a high Albanian population, and say, 'Well, this doesn't belong to Serbia anymore. This has to be part of Kosova.' I think that kind of land grabbing has to stop. I think you have to have a combination of multi-ethnic institutions and local town councils and others with people that can work together and move through these political processes. And I think the, the international leadership has to provide the kind of incentives that are required for people on the ground to want to work together.
Jerome McDonnell: Why should the other regions look at this in the former Yugoslavia and say, 'Well you know, the Albanians in Kosovo are going to get an ethnically homogeneous state and we can't have that here in,' you know, take you pick of, of which place - Montenegro or Bosnia. You know, these people would say, 'Gosh we'd like that too. Why not just start redrawing all the lines?'
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well Jerome, I don't think they are going get an ethnically homogeneous state. I mean, what I'm describing to you is not an ethnically homogeneous state. It's the opposite. What I'm describing is a state in which there is multi-ethnicity, and it's protected, guaranteed, and that diversity is understood by the state and, and valued by it's citizens. That's the same principle that's informed work in Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia and elsewhere in the region.
Jerome McDonnell: Wesley Clark is a retired Four-Star General and Supreme Allied Commander of NATO.
