General Wesley Clark on Your World With Neil Cavuto
November 21, 2005
transcription by Reg NYC

Neil Cavuto: Even if Zarqawi is not dead, is he as good as dead man walking with Jordanians and now other Muslims turning on him? Let us ask former Supreme Allied Commander, General Wesley Clark. He is also a Fox News military analyst, former presidential candidate as well. General, good to have you.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Good to be with you, Neil.

Neil Cavuto: What if he were dead?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think it would be a help. At least it's a blow publicly against his network. But you'd have to believe that there are back-ups, there are other people, probably who are thirsting with ambition to run it, and they may be as effective as Zarqawi is, and they would take some credit for the actions that are being done. So, I think it's a mistake to count on the fact that a single person can be eliminated and end the problem in Iraq.

Neil Cavuto: But if we keep knocking off the chiefs- and if one of them is Zarqawi, and maybe Osama Bin Laden down the road- does that make the battle against insurgents more winnable?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Yes, and I think you have to get not only the "chiefs," but you have to get the "Indians." You have to get as many- You need to roll these networks up. And you may get the chiefs first. You may not get the chiefs first. Maybe you take out all the cells without getting any named players that are well-known, but it doesn't matter. You've got to continue to develop intelligence- take these down- and you get that intelligence by protecting the people from their threats.

Neil Cavuto: You know, I know you're not a stock market guy, but I do a lot of stocks on this show, General, and the prevailing wisdom I'm hearing behind some of the optimism on Wall Street- not only because we're getting improved numbers and some corporate numbers looking good- but there's a sense that the worst that you could say about the Iraq war is the worst, that it will get better from here. Do you buy that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's not clear where we're headed from here. I do think that we're going to have a vote, and I think there'll be a government put in place. But the thing about the vote, it doesn't mean that everybody agrees. There was a vote before the American Civil War, and yet we still had a civil war. So, what I think we need to do is we need to press ahead. I think the administration spent a year and a half without moving politically inside Iraq. Now it's doing that. It's finally starting to talk to Iraq's neighbors, Syria and Iran in particular. I think that the optimism that you're seeing, if there is any, is a recognition that this administration is finally understanding that you can't win this problem with military force alone and you can't win it with a tunnel focus on Iraq. You've got to really look at the whole region, and you've got to use all the tools of US power- the diplomacy, the economics, the international law- as well as the military.

Neil Cavuto: Let me ask you as a retired General, former commander, is it damaging to troops when they hear all this discord at home?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, yes and no. On the one hand, the troops always want to be supported, and they want to believe in what they're doing. But on the other hand, you know there, most of them are mature enough to recognize that this is also an issue in United States political system.

Neil Cavuto: So if someone like a Congressman Murtha, well respected in the military, tells people we should get out, does that make them feel like they're sitting ducks?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No. No, I don't think so. I mean, most of them are ambivalent about it. (laughs) They want to succeed. They'd also like to be home. And so, most of the people in the military are- This is a political problem. 'This is above our pay grade.' That's what they're going to tell you. 'Just sort it out. You people sort it out.'

Neil Cavuto: But I can't imagine it doesn't effect moods.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think really what effect their mood most is: how many days until they get home, how they're treated by the chain of command, and how effective they are. You see, everybody in this debate, Murtha on down, all support our troops and what they're doing in there.

Neil Cavuto: Yeah, they all say that, but they don't (inaudible). They don't support the mission.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it more than- It's more than saying it.

Neil Cavuto: So, I guess what I'm asking is: What will be the defining Democratic position in a couple of years? You ran for president. Are those in support of the war going to be ostracized among the established Democratic Party versus those who are not?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, what I'm trying to say, Neil, is that the administration's had a tunnel vision, excessive focus on the military, on calling it a war and on looking only at Iraq. The military's just a piece of the solution, and the Generals would be the first ones tell you this.

Neil Cavuto: Would you take back troops? Would you draw back, as John Kerry has advocated?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: What I'd look for is a success strategy. I haven't supported John Kerry's approach that he gave, nor do I support Murtha's.

Neil Cavuto: So, you wouldn't take troops out. You wouldn't take troops out.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: What I would be doing is I'd be working regional diplomacy. I'd be talking the Syrians and the Iranians. I'd be looking at what the troops are doing. I'd be providing interpreters. I don't want a single squad of American troops to be out there without the ability to communicate with the Iraqis. I'd accelerate the training program. I'd strengthen what we're doing on the borders, and I'd be working to give the Iraqis back control of their cities.

Neil Cavuto: Would you set a timetable, as many Democrats urged last week?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No timetables. No timetables.

Neil Cavuto: Do you think it was a mistake that they were pushing for that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, they weren't pushing for it. What they were pushing for was a series of events which could be used to peg troop withdrawals. I think that's perfectly reasonable. Look, if you train three Iraqi brigades to fight with US assistance, doesn't that mean you can at least pull back a battalion or two of US troops? And I think that it's fair to ask that question. One of the problems we've had with the administration is, unlike the previous administration- what we did in the Balkans, we were very up front about that the benchmarks were and when we were coming out, once we got past the initial one year commitment in Bosnia. That hasn't happened yet here.

Neil Cavuto: But I think what Vice-President Cheney was saying today, General, was that you haven't been that supportive- not you individually- but there's been a lot of rear-view second-guessing that has no place at this time, and a lot of people who are simply saying things that were not true.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, you're asking me about what we would do, Now you want to go back and talk about that. Listen, I've been very clear, Neil.

Neil Cavuto: But on this issue, General.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: On this issue.

Neil Cavuto: On this issue, the Vice-President saying that-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Fine.

Neil Cavuto: -critics who are now revisiting this issue of intelligence, what they knew or didn't know, that it's a shame.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It's not a shame. It's very important. It's an essential part of democracy. I was one of those at the time-

Neil Cavuto: Do you think the administration made up data?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They hyped the data, and I think Dick Cheney has a lot to answer for, Neil. There was no call for him to say-

Neil Cavuto: So was Senator Kerry fooled? Was Senator Kerry fooled? Hillary Clinton fooled?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: There was- There was no call for Dick Cheney to say the he knew that Iraq was about to get nuclear weapons as he said in March 2003. So that's the hype.

Neil Cavuto: So all the ones who presented this evidence- I got you, but all the ones who presented this so-called evidence, which I guess you're questioning now, were they duped? Were Kerry, Clinton duped?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm not using labels on this. What I'm saying is that when you're in the Executive Branch, you're in control of the intelligence. There wouldn't have been even a National Intelligence Estimate produced if Senator Bob Graham hadn't demanded it before the vote. So, the administration was-

Neil Cavuto: Do you think the President lied?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: -perfectly prepared to lay out the case according to the way he saw it and put the Congress in a position where it had to either say 'yes' and go along with him or whether it had to say 'no.'

Neil Cavuto: But that implies the President lied. Right, sir? Do you think the President-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I'm not using that word.

Neil Cavuto: Well, many in your party are all but saying he did.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I don't think they are.

Neil Cavuto: Really.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think, Neil, I think what we need to do is-

Neil Cavuto: 'Trumped up, trumped up data,' 'trumped up information."

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think what we need to do is: we need to take away the sort of super-charged rhetoric. I don't think that John Murtha has anything to do with Michael Moore. I think John Murtha is a very courageous guy, and I don't think that either side serves itself well by labeling. I think what the American people want are the facts. I think they'd like to go back and say, 'well what is is exactly that the Vice-President- What was he drawing on when he said he was certain that Iraq was going to get a nuclear weapon soon? Was it the aluminum tubes?'

Neil Cavuto: But take your party out of it for a second.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Wait a second. The aluminum tubes have been discredited.

Neil Cavuto: General, I know what you're saying. I know all that stuff you're saying.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But do the American people know it? That's the question, Neil.

Neil Cavuto: But do you, do you- Apart from being a Democrat, you're a military hero in your own right, recognized hero. I'm just wondering whether you, in looking at this from your military perspective, would say that the charges of hyping things up is a problem with the Republicans or the Democrats?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, what I'd say from my military perspective is that we'll be the first ones to tell you, 'don't use force unless all other alternatives have been exhausted.'

Neil Cavuto: But we have and we did. So, what'll we do?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We didn't.

Neil Cavuto: Well, now we are using force.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, now you've gone back to ask what we should do. I've explained to you what we should do. We should use diplomacy. We should use politics, and we should use military force in Iraq.

Neil Cavuto: Your old competitor, Senator Edwards, says it was a mistake now, in retrospect, with that vote. Do you expect more to do that?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I wouldn't have voted for the resolution, as I made clear.

Neil Cavuto: Okay. General Wesley Clark. Thank you very much.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you.