General Wesley Clark on This Week with George Stephanopoulos
March 5, 2006
Transcription by Melange

George Stephanopoulos: We're back now with former NATO Commander, General Wesley Clark. Former presidential candidate as well. Welcome back to This Week.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thanks George.

George Stephanopoulos: Let's pick up on that debate we just left off on. Are you for this Dubai Ports World deal or not?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think it ought to be reviewed. But you know, the United States has to find a way to fit into the modern world. Now, there's no reason why American companies can't own and operate ports - not only here and abroad - but our security doesn't depend on who owns the facility, in other words, who's collecting the money and taking the tolls. It depends on how we regulate the facility.

George Stephanopoulos: So it sounds like you're for this.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, what I'm saying is we've got to strengthen port security overall in America. It's weak, and it doesn't matter who owns it, it's weak. We're not inspecting the containers that are coming in. We don't have the right radiation monitors out there. We don't know who's in the ports. And port security actually starts abroad. You have to start with ports overseas that are loading the containers that are coming to America. It's too late once they reach out ports so <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: So, you don't share this view that Dubai is a bad actor in the war on terror?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I've been to Dubai, I've met those people. A lot of the countries in that region have difficulties so, I think that rather than labeling countries, what we need to do is take a very pragmatic look at what our own homeland security problems are. In the area of port security, even if we owned every port in America, that wouldn't be adequate for port security because the security has to start over there. We have to work with the people in Dubai, the people in um…ah, in Rotterdam, the people in Korea, the people in Japan, the people in China, because that's where the threats originate that come to our ports. So there's no walling off America. We're in a global economy whether we like it or not.

George Stephanopoulos: So that means you disagree, then, with Senator Clinton's legislation which would require American ownership and management of international ports?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think that Senator Clinton's done a good thing in terms of raising the visibility on this issue. We need to get into the port security issue <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: But you don't agree with the legislation?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, when we go through the legislative process, there's going to be some hearings. We really need to take this apart. Homeland security has not received the emphasis and attention it needs and, in particular, port security hasn't. There've been any number of initiatives, there's money that's been laid out, but it hasn't been pulled together. So, I think we need to look through the issue of ownership, the issue of control, the issue of regulation, the issue of how we relate to the ports overseas. All of that needs to be on the table, and then find our way through it. <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: But you just said that we can't wall off America so

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We cannot wall off America.

George Stephanopoulos: We can't wall off America so that means that you wouldn't prohibit foreign investment in these kinds of operations, doesn't it?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think you've got to recognize that it's a very complicated place out there, economically. You know, even labeling who is an American to own it, it's not a single American individual, it's an American company, can it have foreign ownership in an American company? Can it be an international company with headquarters abroad but majority US ownership? It gets pretty complicated. What we need to be focusing on is how the ports are regulated and how we're dealing with the ports abroad. It's much more important. <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: I'm listening to you very closely, I'm going to have to catch you as a 'no' on that legislation but let's move on, ah, to Iraq. President Bush is scheduled to meet with General Abizaid and General Casey this week and they're going to discuss this issue of whether and when we should start withdrawing troops. There had been a hope that there would be a gradual reduction to about 100,000 troops by the end of this year. Do you think that should go forward?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We're at a key point right now in Iraq. We've got a choice between kind of a C- solution and an F solution. <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: Heck of a choice.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Getting involved was a big mistake. Pulling troops out and announcing a timeline, right now, when we haven't set the conditions on the ground to do this would be a big mistake.

George Stephanopoulos: Even a gradual reduction down to about 100,000?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Maybe we can reduce forces, but right now we shouldn't be focused on the troop strength. Right now we're at the decisive point of what's going to determine the future of Iraq. It's the politics inside Iraq. What we have to do is to get the Sunni leadership into the government and the constitution has to be modified so there can't be a carve up of Iraq into a Shia-dominated Iranian buffer state in the south, a Kurdish controlled area in the North and leaving the Sunnis on the outside.

George Stephanopoulos: That seems to be the President's policy right now. The question is what kind of leverage do we have and what kind of leverage should we use over that Shi'ite majority to make sure they include the Sunnis?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, starting with the idea of a US-directed troop pulldown is the worst way to get that leverage. What we have to do is we have to use the military leverage to gain political leverage. You can't just jawbone. So, I think we should be taking a number of military measures, like deploying more troops on the border with Iran, like making it clear that we're going to be prepared to assist in the disarming of the Shiite militias if they don't comply with the disarmament requirements.

George Stephanopoulos: Wouldn't that put the United States right in the middle of a civil war?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We have to take leadership on the ground politically. We can't just mechanically go through a process of training the troops and leaving because we're leaving behind…when we leave Iraq, that doesn't end our interests in the region. Iraq's part of that region so we've got interests in the Israeli-Palestinian issue and the protection of energy sources and whether Iran gets nuclear weapons. We can't just walk away from the region. And that means that it's not just about US troop presence, it's about what kind of government is left behind in Iraq.

George Stephanopoulos: You've called this a decisive point. Some have feared that the last couple of weeks have been a tipping point, where Iraq may tip over into civil war. General Casey says that crisis has passed; a lot of people have questioned that, but my question to you is what should the United States do if this civil war does flare up? Should US forces be put in between Shiites and Sunnis?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think it's possible to do that in a practical sense for most of the country.

George Stephanopoulos: How so?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because there's not enough US forces there, we don't speak the language, we don't know who all those people are, we can't control crime in Baghdad - we never could, and we couldn't do it now. We might be able to protect certain key facilities but the point is <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: Then you would be willing to deploy US forces in that way?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: No. We're there right now doing this. What we have to do, right now, we're at the edge of the abyss right now in Iraq. We have got to use all of our leverage to get responsible Sunni leaders into this government. Whether that means moving the Prime Minister Jaafari out, whether it means playing the card of Arab Shiism against Persian Shiism, whether it means <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: What does that mean?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: threatening to move against the Shiite militias, whether it means using Muqtada al-Sadr. There are a lot of different political forces. One of the things that's happened to us, George, is this debate - largely because of the administration in the way it's been portrayed, it's always about the military. What's happening in Iraq is not about the military. It's about who controls the country and what the future policies of Iraq will be. Those are political questions. Our ambassador over there is trying to do that job but he's not getting the help he needs. We've never established a regional dialogue we needed to - with Syria, with Iran, with the other states in the region. We just haven't given the military the help it needs to resolve this problem and so I just have to shy away from the excessive focus on the military. This is not a problem the military can solve. They're part of the solution and the military forces can be used to create political leverage, but we're not going to be able to change the forces in play in Iraq simply by jawboning. It won't be enough. We've got to use the leverage, from the region and internally, to get the responsible Sunnis into that government. Now. And the constitution changed before it's too late.

George Stephanopoulos: Let me turn to Iran. You told the Council on Foreign Relations earlier this month, that before we take Iran to the UN Security Council over their proposed nuclear weapons program, we should try talking to them directly and doing business with Iranian businesses. That's a very different approach from what other Democrats, like Senator Evan Bayh and Senator Clinton, are calling for. They say we need tough sanctions now. Why are you convinced that your approach is better?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, maybe we will need tough sanctions later on. But before any of that happens…years ago we should have talked to Iran, and it's not too late right now.

George Stephanopoulos: Directly.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Directly to Iran. The Iranian state is not unified. There are differences of opinion in Iran, but rather that passing a $75 million Iranian Liberation Act funding proposal, why don't we just talk to the Iranian leadership and see if there's not a way <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: But don't you believe that if they're this intent on developing a nuclear weapon…

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I think they are intent and the more we press against them, the more difficult it would be for them to change their direction. Iran represents an historic opportunity for the Shias to have leadership in the Islamic world and this nuclear issue is being crystallized in such a way that it's going to make it extremely difficult for them to back off.

George Stephanopoulos: But don't they know that the message is 'if you don't give up your nuclear program then you're not going to be able to join this modern world'? Isn't that what the United States is saying; isn't that what the European community is saying?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, it's a very mixed message going to the Iranians, frankly. We're not saying we're not going to buy their oil. China's not telling the Iranians 'we won't help you build subways'. The Russians aren't telling the Iranians 'you're not going to get our billion dollars worth of weapons that you've ordered'. It's a very mixed message and really it's the United States which hasn't taken its leadership responsibilities seriously enough to go and talk to the Iranians first before this crisis comes to a head.

George Stephanopoulos: Let's talk about some politics. It seems to me you're scratching the presidential edge just a little bit again, heading up to New Hampshire later this month. What lessons did you learn from your campaign in 2004 and how will you decide whether to run in 2008?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, what I'm trying to do is help the right Democrats get elected in 2006. That's the most important thing. And, I'm very proud, we've got something like 55 US military veterans running for Congress as Democrats. I want to help each and every one of them. I think they can make a huge difference in the future of this country. I think having one-party domination of government is very dangerous for democracy and frankly that's where all my energies and activities are focused.

George Stephanopoulos: Well, you've completely ignored my question. Let me re-ask one of them.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I just want to make it clear, George, I know there's a lot of speculation on 2008 and there's a lot of great people out there who are lining up and testing the waters and setting up exploratory committees. I'm very proud to have had the opportunity to run in 2004; I did learn a lot. And if you look at what qualities are required in a president today, this is a time where Americans are engaged and responding to foreign affairs like never before. The war on terror, the war in Iraq, the port issue, global trade, um, the avian flu…I mean, it's just…we cannot wall off the outside world so I think it's very important that Americans look to people who've got some experience. Having said that, my focus is on 2006 and helping the right Democrats get into office because I think when you look at this country, right now, we need a 2-party system that works, we need Congress to do its job, we need real investigation of some of the abuses of authority that are apparently going on at the Executive branch, we need <crosstalk>

George Stephanopoulos: Like what?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: We need to really get to the bottom of the Abramoff scandal, we should have a special prosecutor appointed for that, we really need a congressional investigation of the whole business of the NSA wiretapping and how far that goes, there's been a lot of squirreling around the edges; we've never completed the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had - the evidence seems pretty clear to me, I've seen that for a long time. I think Americans are best served by a strong 2-party system and that's been out of whack and what I can do in 2006 is try to help the right Democrats get into office and that's what I'm going to do.

George Stephanopoulos: And we'll have you back after the midterms. General Clark, thanks very much.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thanks very much, George.