General Wesley Clark on MSNBC
June 25, 2007 2:00 PM
transcript by Reg NYC

Contessa Brewer: Hamid Karzai is warning U.S. and NATO forces that Afghan life is not cheap. Allied forces are taking on Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, but they're increasingly killing innocent civilians. And that's the finding from an Associated Press report. Of course, the fallout is raising the level of anger at the U.S. and NATO from Afghans. MSNBC analyst and former NATO Commander General Wesley Clark joins me now. General, great to see you today.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Nice to be with you Contessa.

Contessa Brewer: So, according to the Associated Press, while Taliban militants killed 178 Afghan civilians this year, Western forces killed 203. In your opinion, is Karzai right? Are Western forces being careful enough not to target civilians?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, Karzai's reflecting opinion in Afghanistan, as he must. And I think this is a very important public warning to the NATO Commanders that they must change the rules that they're following in bringing in close air support. Of course we want to do everything to protect our troops there, but to win this war you can't alienate the people of Afghanistan. I think Karzai and NATO are certainly on the same side in this. Obviously, our Commanders don't want to kill innocent people. It does happen, and it's a matter of tightening up on the rules to reduce its occurrence.

Contessa Brewer: So, do you do that by refraining from using air strikes when you have small a-arms fire against U.S. troops or NATO troops?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Y-you might have, you might have various criteria. For example, you might say, unless the unit's being in, in danger of overrunning, being overrun, you cannot use close air support if there are any non-combatants in the area. Or you might restrict the use of close air support against buildings unless you can be sure that there're not non-combatants in those buildings. Or you might have to give a warning by some kind of a speaking device to the people in the buildings to come out before the air power is used.

Contessa Brewer: And General-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: You'd have to set up a series of rules.

Contessa Brewer: In, in some places where this is happening, is it because the Taliban is coming out, attacking NATO forces or American forces, and then retreating into homes?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think there's no doubt about it. Those homes provide cover. They can provide concealment. And if there are hostages, it's a hostage-like situation, where they've got innocent people in there, certainly it's happening. It may also be happening inadvertently. Maybe the Taliban cut through the home. They're no longer in home, but that's the last place the NATO forces saw them. And whether it's deliberate or inadvertent, the re- result is the same, really. It's causing us to lose the support and trust of the people in Afghanistan.

Contessa Brewer: A-and, and do you get the sense that this is a problem for the Commanders over there, that this is something that they see as a problem and want to deal with it?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Absolutely. There's no question General McNeal, the Commander over there is very sensitive to this problem. He is trying to deal with it. He doesn't want to have to (chuckling) tighten up the rules, because that puts greater risk on our own soldiers. But I think what President Karzai is saying is you must tighten the rules. You must change the balance of risk.

Contessa Brewer: Mm hm. General Clark, great pleasure having you. Thank you.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Thank you. Thank you.